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New Proprietary forks and threat models
cwbrenn wrote:

As long as the GNU and other licenses in a Linux distro remain enforceable, you can't have a company like IBM or Microsoft bury the software.

I'm not sure you've thought this through, thoroughly: As we say in the security field, have you considered what's the threat model? What do you feel that threat model is? You didn't specify.

It sounds like you're saying the obligation to release source changes (when people distribute modified binaries) might prove legally unenforceable. If so, then the only consequence would be that people could lawfully distribute proprietary forks.

Wow, that's what killed FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD, right?

Oops.

If a law like the DMCA suddenly makes the GPL illegal....

OK, the Anti-Commie-Pinko Statute of 2003 comes into force, providing that mandatory source-code disclosure provisions are unenforceable and that those who attempt to use them are to be publicly impaled. People who have been producing GPLed codebases fork their own codebases, issuing new instances under two-clause BSD licences. Curse their devilish cleverness!

The Anti-Commie-Pinko Statute of 2004 follows that, stating that all software licences that don't require payment of money are unenforceable. The aforementioned malefactors continue to distribute their software anyway, and just don't seek to enforce their terms.

The Anti-Commie-Pinko Statute of 2005 comes last, and bans copyright law's applicability to software that is distributed without an obligation to pay money for it. The aforementioned malefactors declare their works to be in the public domain.

We could go on, I suppose.

As I was saying to Todd, the essential characteristic of open-source software isn't any specific licence, but rather the right to fork. You're going to have a difficult time concocting a credible dystopia where that's barred by law.

...Thus, newbies will be seen as "freeloaders" by parts of the Linux community, and ranks of the nutjob elite will swell.

Again, and the consequence is...?

The Linux coder community has been self-sustaining for a decade. And they're really, really good at filtering out noise. Increase the irrelevant noise by a factor of ten, and they'll still filter it out.

Experiment: Join LKML (the Linux kernel mailing list), and start deliberately posting random crap about how Linux distributions aren't friendly enough and that developers need to add binary handlers for VBA, and things like that. Attempt to do that for a week.

It'll come as no surprise that you'd be pretty much universally killfiled, right? However, it might surprise you that you'd be silently removed from the subscriber roster in fairly short order, and find that pretty much all subsequent subscription attempts would mysteriously fail.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
New Dystopian Vision
Uh... you'll recall I was talking about the reasons why there are nutjobs in the Linux community right? My entire "if the DMCA makes the GPL illegal then Linux is doomed" scenario is taken from a "nutjob raving" I've seen posted fairly regularly. Since when did logic ever enter into the equation when dealing with the lunatic fringe, especially when dealing with operating systems?

As my second comment, well you're right -- the chance of the unwashed masses ever drowning out a developers mailing list is very, very small. However, when it reaches the point where developers have to sequester themselves into tiny rooms to hide from the keening of the great clueless throngs of their userbase, you can go ahead and torch that bazaar and build another cathedral, because you've effectively lost the open development model.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
New Re: Dystopian Vision
cwbrenn wrote:

However, when it reaches the point where developers have to sequester themselves into tiny rooms to hide from the keening of the great clueless throngs of their userbase, you can go ahead and torch that bazaar and build another cathedral, because you've effectively lost the open development model.

The hypothetical keening masses would be seeking handholding technical support, which the developers would not be offering. Fortunately for both parties, (1) the former don't even know where to find the latter, and (2) other people entirely tend to see this situation as a business opportunity, and advertise exactly those services.

I've often really liked the "a la carte" model for support/training/administration, especially when I was operating a consulting business. ;->

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
     Windows Linux and Mac OS X - a new hallelujia !!! - (dmarker) - (122)
         Re: Windows Linux and Mac OS X - a new hallelujia !!! - (tjsinclair) - (8)
             Re: Windows Linux and Mac OS X - a new hallelujia !!! - (deSitter) - (2)
                 Regarding the mouse - (tjsinclair) - (1)
                     Re: Regarding the mouse - (deSitter)
             Linux kernel - (rickmoen) - (4)
                 The presumption is... - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                     Re: The presumption is... - (rickmoen) - (1)
                         Having the option is valuable, even if not exercised - (ben_tilly)
                     Nah - (tuberculosis)
         MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (rickmoen) - (110)
             I guess this is what we get - (tjsinclair) - (81)
                 Well, no, it's not a Linux thing at all - (rickmoen) - (80)
                     Re: Well, no, it's not a Linux thing at all - (dmarker) - (78)
                         Workplace OS rocked - (rickmoen) - (77)
                             good criticism, but only half right (re. filesystems) - (cwbrenn) - (8)
                                 On FAT vs HPFS - (Another Scott) - (6)
                                     Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (rickmoen) - (5)
                                         Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (deSitter) - (4)
                                             Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (Steve Lowe) - (3)
                                                 Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (deSitter) - (2)
                                                     3 copies now on eBay. IBM has it too for $180. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                     consider picking up eCS - (SpiceWare)
                                 Er, I did say two volumes... - (rickmoen)
                             Partial agreement here - (tjsinclair) - (67)
                                 Thanks for that - (rickmoen) - (4)
                                     Very True (TANGENT) - (cwbrenn) - (3)
                                         Proprietary forks and threat models - (rickmoen) - (2)
                                             Dystopian Vision - (cwbrenn) - (1)
                                                 Re: Dystopian Vision - (rickmoen)
                                 Accident waiting to happen - (tuberculosis) - (61)
                                     You found a way to break your files? Sorry to hear. - (rickmoen) - (60)
                                         You're wrong again as usual - stick to Linux -NT - (tuberculosis) - (59)
                                             Verily, the technopeasant priesthood has spoken - (rickmoen) - (58)
                                                 You don't actually *use* the system, do you. - (tuberculosis) - (57)
                                                     Unix file basics - (rickmoen) - (56)
                                                         HFS File basics - (tuberculosis) - (42)
                                                             Envoi - (rickmoen) - (41)
                                                                 You could run the correct test - (ben_tilly) - (40)
                                                                     This would be my cue to ask this: (new thread) - (static)
                                                                     Exactly - thanks -NT - (tuberculosis)
                                                                     I am understanding unix&tar has different capabilities? - (boxley) - (34)
                                                                         Not sure what you are asking - (tuberculosis)
                                                                         No - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                             my point was Nix tools do not understand all file systems - (boxley)
                                                                         You understand wrong - (kmself) - (30)
                                                                             well lets try it out - (boxley) - (9)
                                                                                 You know dam well... - (folkert) - (4)
                                                                                     point==missed - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                                         Windows, MAC OSX, MacOS9.x, *NIX - (folkert) - (2)
                                                                                             ed zachery -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                             Windows has the bigger problem... - (ChrisR)
                                                                                 Wrong - (kmself) - (3)
                                                                                     The reason I brought this upo was recovering files from a - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                         Two possible issues I can think of... - (kmself) - (1)
                                                                                             It was over a year ago so bear with me - (boxley)
                                                                             Once again, Todd's explanation - (ben_tilly) - (19)
                                                                                 Using a hammer to drive screws will hurt - (rickmoen) - (18)
                                                                                     I understand your position perfectly - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                                                                         Re: I understand your position perfectly - (rickmoen) - (9)
                                                                                             If it is not a straw man... - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                                                 Re: If it is not a straw man... - (rickmoen) - (7)
                                                                                                     Funny, I concluded the same as Ben - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                                                                                         Re: Funny, I concluded the same as Ben - (rickmoen) - (5)
                                                                                                             Little story - you might find it entertaining - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                                 Excellent story. Going on the wall. -NT - (admin)
                                                                                                                 This my dear friend... (new thread) - (folkert)
                                                                                                             Since you seem to be missing the point... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                                                 Re: Since you seem to be missing the point... - (rickmoen)
                                                                                     I do not think that word means what you think it means. - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                                                                         Hello, you must be going. - (rickmoen) - (5)
                                                                                             This is obvious? - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                                                                                                 Re: This is obvious? - (rickmoen) - (3)
                                                                                                     At no time did you utter the word "obvious" - nice dodge - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                         Re: At no time did you utter the word "obvious" - nice dodge - (rickmoen) - (1)
                                                                                                             Topic at hand - point out what you claim is "obvious" (new thread) - (tuberculosis)
                                                                     Basic point seems to have been missed - (rickmoen) - (2)
                                                                         Yes you have missed it - (tuberculosis)
                                                                         I see so to use OSX effectively - (boxley)
                                                         Never used Apple OSes in my life, - (Arkadiy) - (12)
                                                             Re: Never used Apple OSes in my life, - (rickmoen) - (11)
                                                                 For certain kind of user - (Arkadiy) - (10)
                                                                     Re: For certain kind of user - (rickmoen) - (9)
                                                                         Gee - got an ISBN for that manual? - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                             Re: Gee - got an ISBN for that manual? - (rickmoen) - (1)
                                                                                 He had no difficulty in figuring out how the system works - (ben_tilly)
                                                                         rm - the ultimate corruptor -NT - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                                                                             ouch! R.M. - the ultimate corruptor. -NT - (Arkadiy)
                                                                             rm -rf / - (inthane-chan)
                                                                         isnt that the beauty of nix? It does what it is commanded to - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                             Well, personally.. - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                                 yup my intro to unix - (boxley)
                     Understood, I just meant - (tjsinclair)
             So where exactly IS NeXT Step in the mix? - (cwbrenn) - (3)
                 I believe it's the Cocoa API + Objective C -NT - (tjsinclair)
                 As I said. - (rickmoen)
                 Its the GUI lib - (tuberculosis)
             Who is Apple Computer? - (tuberculosis) - (8)
                 Pin terpsichory - (rickmoen)
                 Legal matters, GNUStep - (rickmoen) - (6)
                     Did you take a pendantic pill this morning or what? - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                         Rick get his pedantic in suppository form ;-) -NT - (drewk) - (2)
                             We have a suppository forum? - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                 flame and politics, the suppositories post there :-) -NT - (boxley)
                         But they're only application libraries! - (rickmoen) - (1)
                             You're a loony. (new thread) - (tuberculosis)
             I thought Sun bought NextStep - (boxley) - (3)
                 You're probably thinking of NeWS - (rickmoen) - (2)
                     Nope this is what I remembered Jobs and Sun, OpenStep - (boxley)
                     No, he's thinking of NextStep - (tuberculosis)
             Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (karnak) - (10)
                 Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (rickmoen) - (9)
                     Nothing wrong with a 68040. - (admin) - (4)
                         Semi-OT: Fatboy Slim still does all his work on an Atari ST -NT - (Meerkat) - (3)
                             That's what I used originally - (admin) - (2)
                                 Do you sound as bad? - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                     Worse. - (admin)
                     Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (karnak) - (3)
                         Comparison of OpenStep & WindowMaker? - (kmself)
                         Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (rickmoen)
                         Have you considered GNUStep? - (orion)
         Apple and Linux - (orion) - (1)
             Do you ever think before you type? -NT - (tuberculosis)

LRPD that. Now.
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