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New Thanks for that
Tom wrote:

Good discussion so far. Lots of light, very little heat.

Thank you for reading it in the spirit intended. I admit to harbouring some lingering resentment at some of the treatment I received on the aforementioned OS X mailing list ("x4u"), what with the anonymous hatemail and gratuitous Church of Steve "witnessings" I kept being subjected to, on grounds of insufficient ideological purity and excessive technical aptitude. But of course that wasn't anybody here, doing that.

The worst aspect of that treatment was that it was willfully unclear on the basic concept of why I was (and wasn't) participating, there. I mentioned the guy who incessantly tried to troll me into MacOS vs. Linux advocacy debates (in which I had no interest). Since he kept trying nonetheless, I tried to explain to him that, because of their different licence model, Linux users had no stake in his choice of operating system: Their core interests were simply not subject to zero-sum popularity contests with other OS environments. I suggested that, if it really bothered him that much that I was posting (useful, correct) OS X technical answers from "rick@linuxmafia.com" using Linux console mailers, he should seek some more private form of therapy, as the barrage of non-sequitur OS advocacy was both clueless and annoying.

And, of course, he didn't listen. I quietly killfiled him, which removed the problem from my view, at least.

That gentleman was hardly alone in attributing imaginary, fanatical nag-people-style OS advocacy to Linux users who've merely answered technical questions and sport X-Mailer headers and .signature blocks to match. Sam Varghese, an excellent Australian IT industry analyst and reporter, recently interviewed me for an upcoming series of articles in The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Here's part of my interview:


You've been described as a rabble rouser. True? False?

The rumours are true, but I raise only top-quality rabble.

We have a saying in the Linux community: "If you don't like the news, make some of your own." Here in the San Francisco / Silicon Valley area, a number of us found to our surprise that we're pretty good at Linux publicity events, and have done a number of them. We had a huge summer picnic in celebration of Linux's 10th birthday in 2001, and had such a good time that we repeated it this past summer, too. In 1998, we had several PR events where we good-naturedly capitalised on Microsoft marketing efforts to show up in public and on-camera, such as during the product launch of Windows 98, where we gave out hundreds of Linux CD-ROMs to people interested in installing them (and pointing out where the stores were also selling Linux boxed sets).

One of the surprises of those years was that we seemed to be significantly more effective at marketing than Microsoft Corporation was, and with no funding at all.

How many people have you converted to Linux? Take the case of any one individual you've converted to Linux. Let's have a rundown of the process.

This is my golden opportunity to embarrass my friend Bill Schoolcraft, so I'm going to run with it. Bill was a professional industrial welder with no particular computer expertise, when he noticed Linux gatherings and started attending them to see what it was about. I was one of the old-timers he learned from, and I successfully badgered him to take extensive notes. I think it was when I kept using the metaphor of software as tools, and stressing the difference good tools and mastery of them can make, that he really "got" the point of the Unix way of thinking. Now, six years later, he's a senior Linux and (Sun Microsystems) Solaris administrator, and earns a good living at it.

But I don't seek to "convert" people in the sense of trying to interest those who prefer something else. Why would I? More about that, below.

Do you think you could achieve more if your advocacy was a little less strident?

I'm reminded of a story about the 19th century US public speaker and political figure Robert G. Ingersoll, who was wildly popular with the public but inspired influential "establishment" detractors by being openly non-religious: Some reporters came to visit, and asked him about the rumours that his son had gotten drunk during a wild party and fell unconscious under the table. Ingersoll paused for effect, then started: "Well, first of all, he didn't fall under the table. And he wasn't actually unconscious. For that matter, he didn't fall. And there wasn't any party, and he didn't have anything to drink.... And, by the way, I don't have a son."

So: It's not what I'd call strident, and I don't do advocacy. At least, not in the usual sense of the term.

The usual sort of OS advocacy is what the "Team OS/2" crowd used to do: They knew that their favourite software would live or die by the level of corporate acceptance and release/maintenance of proprietary shrink-wrapped OS/2 applications. They lobbied, they lost, IBM lost interest, and now their favourite OS is effectively dead.

But Linux is fundamentally different because it and all key applications are open source: The programmer community that maintains it is self-supporting, and would keep it advancing and healthy regardless of whether the business world and general public uses it with wild abandon, only a little, or not at all. Because of its open-source licence terms, its raw source code is permanently available. Linux cannot be "withdrawn from the market" at the whim of some company -- as is slowly happening to OS/2.

Therefore, Linux users are not in a zero-sum competition for popularity with proponents of other operating systems (unlike, say, OS/2, MS-Windows, and Mac OS users). I can honestly wish Apple Computer well with their eye-pleasing and well-made (if a bit slow and inflexible) Mac OS X operating system: Wishing them well doesn't mean wishing Linux ill.

Note that all of the identifiable "Linux companies" could blow away in the breeze like just so much Enron stock, and the advance of Linux would not be materially impaired, because what matters is source code and the licensing thereof, which has rather little to do with any of those firms' fortunes.

Further, and getting back to your original point, I honestly don't care if you or anyone else gets "converted" to Linux. I don't have to. I'm no better off if you do; I'm no worse off if you don't.

What I do care about is giving making useful information and help available to people using Linux or interested in it. Why? Partly to redeem the trust shown by others when they helped me. Partly because it's interesting. Partly because researching and then teaching things I usually start knowing little about is the best way I know to learn. And partly out of pure, unadulterated self-interest: People knowing your name is at least a foot in the door, in the IT business.

As to stridency, there is a well-known problem of all on-line discussion media: Some people become emotionally invested in positions they've taken in technical arguments, and gratuituously turn technical disagreements into verbal brawls. And unfortunately they tend to be drawn to people like me who attempt to state their views clearly and forcefully. It's as if you were to say "I like herring" and thereby summon every dedicated herring-hater within a hundred-mile radius. The problem comes with the territory.

But that causes occasional unpleasantness and back-biting among some on-line Linux users, not an aspect of "advocacy", which isn't something we have much use for, generally -- especially where the term refers to convincing the unwilling.

What do you hope to achieve by this advocacy?

I hope to have fun, to learn, to help those willing to "help themselves" by learning about their systems, to become qualified to work professionally with better and more-interesting technology, to spend more of my time around people I enjoy, and to improve my quality of life by improving the grade of tools I work with.

Please note that "converting users to Linux" is nowhere on that list.


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
New Very True (TANGENT)
The license model Linux uses makes almost bulletproof for the kind of lousy stuff that happened to OS/2. That said, it's the "almost" that I believe creates the worst part of the Linux community.

Linux will live or die by two things:

1. The sanctity of its licenses, and
2. The presence of effective developers within the community

The second point sort of hinges on the first. As long as the GNU and other licenses in a Linux distro remain enforceable, you can't have a company like IBM or Microsoft bury the software. Even if no commercial entity on earth wanted to touch it, so long as the source remains accessible it can continue to be developed... which is NOT the case with OS/2, even though some people have managed to do some amazing things for it despite that fact.

This creates most of the rabid paranoia surrounding all of the "what license do you use" debtes.

The second point is a bit more psychological, though. The more people who are new to linux who show up on the scene, the larger and louder the nutjob community is going to get... because Linux is a community-developed effort, and new users will initially have nothing to contribute. And those of us who have no programming skills will have nothing substantial at all to contribute to Linux in any way, shape or form. Thus, newbies will be seen as "freeloaders" by parts of the Linux community, and ranks of the nutjob elite will swell.

Why? Because while Linux is almost bulletproof, those two points (the sanctity of the license and the presence of developers in the community) need to be protected, and protected viciously. If a law like the DMCA suddenly makes the GPL illegal, Linux is screwed. If there are so many unskilled newbies (like me) using Linux that it's impossible to FIND the developers (i.e., terrible signal to noise ratio) then Linux development will founder.

Alas, the necessity of both makes the Linux world seem almost alien to a lot of people...
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
New Proprietary forks and threat models
cwbrenn wrote:

As long as the GNU and other licenses in a Linux distro remain enforceable, you can't have a company like IBM or Microsoft bury the software.

I'm not sure you've thought this through, thoroughly: As we say in the security field, have you considered what's the threat model? What do you feel that threat model is? You didn't specify.

It sounds like you're saying the obligation to release source changes (when people distribute modified binaries) might prove legally unenforceable. If so, then the only consequence would be that people could lawfully distribute proprietary forks.

Wow, that's what killed FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD, right?

Oops.

If a law like the DMCA suddenly makes the GPL illegal....

OK, the Anti-Commie-Pinko Statute of 2003 comes into force, providing that mandatory source-code disclosure provisions are unenforceable and that those who attempt to use them are to be publicly impaled. People who have been producing GPLed codebases fork their own codebases, issuing new instances under two-clause BSD licences. Curse their devilish cleverness!

The Anti-Commie-Pinko Statute of 2004 follows that, stating that all software licences that don't require payment of money are unenforceable. The aforementioned malefactors continue to distribute their software anyway, and just don't seek to enforce their terms.

The Anti-Commie-Pinko Statute of 2005 comes last, and bans copyright law's applicability to software that is distributed without an obligation to pay money for it. The aforementioned malefactors declare their works to be in the public domain.

We could go on, I suppose.

As I was saying to Todd, the essential characteristic of open-source software isn't any specific licence, but rather the right to fork. You're going to have a difficult time concocting a credible dystopia where that's barred by law.

...Thus, newbies will be seen as "freeloaders" by parts of the Linux community, and ranks of the nutjob elite will swell.

Again, and the consequence is...?

The Linux coder community has been self-sustaining for a decade. And they're really, really good at filtering out noise. Increase the irrelevant noise by a factor of ten, and they'll still filter it out.

Experiment: Join LKML (the Linux kernel mailing list), and start deliberately posting random crap about how Linux distributions aren't friendly enough and that developers need to add binary handlers for VBA, and things like that. Attempt to do that for a week.

It'll come as no surprise that you'd be pretty much universally killfiled, right? However, it might surprise you that you'd be silently removed from the subscriber roster in fairly short order, and find that pretty much all subsequent subscription attempts would mysteriously fail.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
New Dystopian Vision
Uh... you'll recall I was talking about the reasons why there are nutjobs in the Linux community right? My entire "if the DMCA makes the GPL illegal then Linux is doomed" scenario is taken from a "nutjob raving" I've seen posted fairly regularly. Since when did logic ever enter into the equation when dealing with the lunatic fringe, especially when dealing with operating systems?

As my second comment, well you're right -- the chance of the unwashed masses ever drowning out a developers mailing list is very, very small. However, when it reaches the point where developers have to sequester themselves into tiny rooms to hide from the keening of the great clueless throngs of their userbase, you can go ahead and torch that bazaar and build another cathedral, because you've effectively lost the open development model.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
New Re: Dystopian Vision
cwbrenn wrote:

However, when it reaches the point where developers have to sequester themselves into tiny rooms to hide from the keening of the great clueless throngs of their userbase, you can go ahead and torch that bazaar and build another cathedral, because you've effectively lost the open development model.

The hypothetical keening masses would be seeking handholding technical support, which the developers would not be offering. Fortunately for both parties, (1) the former don't even know where to find the latter, and (2) other people entirely tend to see this situation as a business opportunity, and advertise exactly those services.

I've often really liked the "a la carte" model for support/training/administration, especially when I was operating a consulting business. ;->

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
     Windows Linux and Mac OS X - a new hallelujia !!! - (dmarker) - (122)
         Re: Windows Linux and Mac OS X - a new hallelujia !!! - (tjsinclair) - (8)
             Re: Windows Linux and Mac OS X - a new hallelujia !!! - (deSitter) - (2)
                 Regarding the mouse - (tjsinclair) - (1)
                     Re: Regarding the mouse - (deSitter)
             Linux kernel - (rickmoen) - (4)
                 The presumption is... - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                     Re: The presumption is... - (rickmoen) - (1)
                         Having the option is valuable, even if not exercised - (ben_tilly)
                     Nah - (tuberculosis)
         MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (rickmoen) - (110)
             I guess this is what we get - (tjsinclair) - (81)
                 Well, no, it's not a Linux thing at all - (rickmoen) - (80)
                     Re: Well, no, it's not a Linux thing at all - (dmarker) - (78)
                         Workplace OS rocked - (rickmoen) - (77)
                             good criticism, but only half right (re. filesystems) - (cwbrenn) - (8)
                                 On FAT vs HPFS - (Another Scott) - (6)
                                     Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (rickmoen) - (5)
                                         Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (deSitter) - (4)
                                             Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (Steve Lowe) - (3)
                                                 Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (deSitter) - (2)
                                                     3 copies now on eBay. IBM has it too for $180. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                     consider picking up eCS - (SpiceWare)
                                 Er, I did say two volumes... - (rickmoen)
                             Partial agreement here - (tjsinclair) - (67)
                                 Thanks for that - (rickmoen) - (4)
                                     Very True (TANGENT) - (cwbrenn) - (3)
                                         Proprietary forks and threat models - (rickmoen) - (2)
                                             Dystopian Vision - (cwbrenn) - (1)
                                                 Re: Dystopian Vision - (rickmoen)
                                 Accident waiting to happen - (tuberculosis) - (61)
                                     You found a way to break your files? Sorry to hear. - (rickmoen) - (60)
                                         You're wrong again as usual - stick to Linux -NT - (tuberculosis) - (59)
                                             Verily, the technopeasant priesthood has spoken - (rickmoen) - (58)
                                                 You don't actually *use* the system, do you. - (tuberculosis) - (57)
                                                     Unix file basics - (rickmoen) - (56)
                                                         HFS File basics - (tuberculosis) - (42)
                                                             Envoi - (rickmoen) - (41)
                                                                 You could run the correct test - (ben_tilly) - (40)
                                                                     This would be my cue to ask this: (new thread) - (static)
                                                                     Exactly - thanks -NT - (tuberculosis)
                                                                     I am understanding unix&tar has different capabilities? - (boxley) - (34)
                                                                         Not sure what you are asking - (tuberculosis)
                                                                         No - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                             my point was Nix tools do not understand all file systems - (boxley)
                                                                         You understand wrong - (kmself) - (30)
                                                                             well lets try it out - (boxley) - (9)
                                                                                 You know dam well... - (folkert) - (4)
                                                                                     point==missed - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                                         Windows, MAC OSX, MacOS9.x, *NIX - (folkert) - (2)
                                                                                             ed zachery -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                             Windows has the bigger problem... - (ChrisR)
                                                                                 Wrong - (kmself) - (3)
                                                                                     The reason I brought this upo was recovering files from a - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                         Two possible issues I can think of... - (kmself) - (1)
                                                                                             It was over a year ago so bear with me - (boxley)
                                                                             Once again, Todd's explanation - (ben_tilly) - (19)
                                                                                 Using a hammer to drive screws will hurt - (rickmoen) - (18)
                                                                                     I understand your position perfectly - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                                                                         Re: I understand your position perfectly - (rickmoen) - (9)
                                                                                             If it is not a straw man... - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                                                 Re: If it is not a straw man... - (rickmoen) - (7)
                                                                                                     Funny, I concluded the same as Ben - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                                                                                         Re: Funny, I concluded the same as Ben - (rickmoen) - (5)
                                                                                                             Little story - you might find it entertaining - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                                 Excellent story. Going on the wall. -NT - (admin)
                                                                                                                 This my dear friend... (new thread) - (folkert)
                                                                                                             Since you seem to be missing the point... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                                                 Re: Since you seem to be missing the point... - (rickmoen)
                                                                                     I do not think that word means what you think it means. - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                                                                         Hello, you must be going. - (rickmoen) - (5)
                                                                                             This is obvious? - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                                                                                                 Re: This is obvious? - (rickmoen) - (3)
                                                                                                     At no time did you utter the word "obvious" - nice dodge - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                         Re: At no time did you utter the word "obvious" - nice dodge - (rickmoen) - (1)
                                                                                                             Topic at hand - point out what you claim is "obvious" (new thread) - (tuberculosis)
                                                                     Basic point seems to have been missed - (rickmoen) - (2)
                                                                         Yes you have missed it - (tuberculosis)
                                                                         I see so to use OSX effectively - (boxley)
                                                         Never used Apple OSes in my life, - (Arkadiy) - (12)
                                                             Re: Never used Apple OSes in my life, - (rickmoen) - (11)
                                                                 For certain kind of user - (Arkadiy) - (10)
                                                                     Re: For certain kind of user - (rickmoen) - (9)
                                                                         Gee - got an ISBN for that manual? - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                             Re: Gee - got an ISBN for that manual? - (rickmoen) - (1)
                                                                                 He had no difficulty in figuring out how the system works - (ben_tilly)
                                                                         rm - the ultimate corruptor -NT - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                                                                             ouch! R.M. - the ultimate corruptor. -NT - (Arkadiy)
                                                                             rm -rf / - (inthane-chan)
                                                                         isnt that the beauty of nix? It does what it is commanded to - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                             Well, personally.. - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                                 yup my intro to unix - (boxley)
                     Understood, I just meant - (tjsinclair)
             So where exactly IS NeXT Step in the mix? - (cwbrenn) - (3)
                 I believe it's the Cocoa API + Objective C -NT - (tjsinclair)
                 As I said. - (rickmoen)
                 Its the GUI lib - (tuberculosis)
             Who is Apple Computer? - (tuberculosis) - (8)
                 Pin terpsichory - (rickmoen)
                 Legal matters, GNUStep - (rickmoen) - (6)
                     Did you take a pendantic pill this morning or what? - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                         Rick get his pedantic in suppository form ;-) -NT - (drewk) - (2)
                             We have a suppository forum? - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                 flame and politics, the suppositories post there :-) -NT - (boxley)
                         But they're only application libraries! - (rickmoen) - (1)
                             You're a loony. (new thread) - (tuberculosis)
             I thought Sun bought NextStep - (boxley) - (3)
                 You're probably thinking of NeWS - (rickmoen) - (2)
                     Nope this is what I remembered Jobs and Sun, OpenStep - (boxley)
                     No, he's thinking of NextStep - (tuberculosis)
             Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (karnak) - (10)
                 Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (rickmoen) - (9)
                     Nothing wrong with a 68040. - (admin) - (4)
                         Semi-OT: Fatboy Slim still does all his work on an Atari ST -NT - (Meerkat) - (3)
                             That's what I used originally - (admin) - (2)
                                 Do you sound as bad? - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                     Worse. - (admin)
                     Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (karnak) - (3)
                         Comparison of OpenStep & WindowMaker? - (kmself)
                         Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (rickmoen)
                         Have you considered GNUStep? - (orion)
         Apple and Linux - (orion) - (1)
             Do you ever think before you type? -NT - (tuberculosis)

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