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New Long time, no Sov
Since alternate realities of a sort have lately been in the headlines as we try to imagine an American history with Strom Thurmond as the 34th president, let me toss this question out for consideration: was the demise of the Soviet Union in 1991 an unalloyed good from the standpoint of the world, or even from the standpoint of the USA?

Merely raising this question will be taken in certain quarters as prima facie evidence of communist sympathies, and this response will serve for some to exempt the issue from further consideration. For the benefit of this contingent, why not let the first two or three red-baiting posts serve for all the rest, conserving bandwidth?

I'm prepared to stipulate that through most of its brief history the USSR was difficult to love if you happened not to be Russian; difficult enough, indeed, if you were. If Academy Awards were issued annually for Most Egregious Twentieth Century Despot, Stalin would certainly have been a contender at awards time each year once he graduated from supporting player roles, and Lenin's rigor in the prosecution of his political objectives does not inspire admiration in most of us. Khruschev we can treat later; he was an extraordinarily complex and interesting character (I saw him briefly during his 1959 visit as his motorcade passed about two blocks from my house in suburban LA) whose ghost his successors never put to rest. Brezhnev was a gifted hack and his two successors neither lived long enough to place his stamp on a regime...and then came Gorbachev, who recognized that the regime was in trouble, and who set out to save it...

Suppose he had succeeded?

Hard to remember anymore, but in his time he was regarded as a political Houdini, balancing the various political factions in his country (which we on this end saw as Stalinistically monolithic decades after it had ceased being any such thing) as he attempted to shed the rigid Stalinist skin his society was pressing against. He's recognized today as instrumental in the USSR's demise ("an incompetent reformer and a masterful, but unintended revolutionary" as one analysis later put it), but what he hoped to achieve was the transformation of the Soviet Union into an entity that could achieve respectability in the global community.

Think of it: a USSR, probably still somewhat authoritarian (perhaps not terribly different in that respect from Putin's Russia, with which we don't seem to have much problem), largely intact (the Baltics may well have had to go, perhaps with some figleaf of confederation) but more nearly capable of maintaining tight control of the fissile materials within its borders, and shorn of its most messianic imperial pretensions (leave those to the professionals here in the US of A, comrades!). Might this entity, under the educated and cosmopolitan Gorbachev, not have been a more useful international citizen than the rump Russia that the erratic and alcoholic Boris Yeltsin yielded up to us?

Let's imagine, finally, that the survival of the USSR had somehow deprived us of the old regime's withdrawal from Afghanistan, where they were slaughtering Islamic fundamentalists in job lots. Might we assume that, were the Red Russians still fighting the good fight in that unhappy country, Osama bin Laden would have other opponents on his mind, greatly to the benefit of NYC commercial real estate holdings these latter years?

Last thought: Henry Kissinger, also in the news recently, used to be fond of saying that the old USSR *needed* us, and unconsciously knew it: that the country, on some subliminal level, feared its own expansionist proclivities, and relied on the USA to keep these in check. Looking at the regnant Bushamerica today, do you suppose there was another side to that equation?

cordially,


"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New From the Left, I'm Mike Moffitt.
Couldn't resist, sorry.

One of my favorite sayings about Gorbachev is "He did in seven years what the CIA could not in seventy." For the Baltics, even Lenin said, "For the sake of peace with Trotsky, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are worth losing."

I suspect that there are two groups who have suffered more than any other as a consequence of the demise of the USSR: the Russian people and the United States. Yes, the entire country. We are virtually rudderless without the Soviet Union.

One need look no further than NASA to see how much vision we have lost because the Soviets are no longer showing us the way. They were first in space (we had to respond), they said "we're going to the moon" (we had to beat them). They said, "we're going to Mars" and one wonders whether we wouldn't be launching manned missions to Mars now if the USSR had been able to survive, most notably by being able to afford itself loans from the rest of the world as we have been able to do.

I was furious with the Carter Administration for boycotting the Olympics over Afghanistan. Clearly, the Soviets wanted a "buffer state" between them and the Islamic nation-states (recall that Iran had just fallen, it's not out of the question that the USSR feared similar uprisings in some of their southern republics). We backed the wrong horse and it bit us in the ass. (A personal disclaimer: I am extremely biased against Afghani's. While visiting the USSR, my father was mugged in Moscow by Afghan diplomats).

What would the world look like? It's difficult to say. If our policies towards the USSR had remained unchanged I don't think the world would be all that much different. If, otoh, our policies had changed significantly, I believe the world would have been a much quieter, much more peaceful place. And New York would still have two of its more gaudy monuments to capitalist excess standing.

But I don't think it would ever be possible for our Soviet policies to change. The greatest threat to "the American Way of Life (tm)" would be the success of a Socialist state (particularly one dedicated to the path to Communism). What drove our policy towards the Soviet Union (beginning with the Westerners killed on Soviet soil trying to overthrow the Bolsheviks) up to the demise of the USSR was our plutocrats terrified that the "Workers of the World" might, in fact, actually unite. That would be the end of their excess, the betterment of the "great unwashed" and an end to tyranny. Tyrants (read US Multi-national Corporations) would fight the notion of equality indefinitely.

What the US realized too late to save the Soviet Union was that the Bolsheviks were never really Communist. They shouldn't have feared Bolshevik Russia because there is damned little difference between America's corporate barons and Bolsheviks - except for their propaganda.

bcnu,
Mikem
New Re: From the Left, I'm Mike Moffitt.
mmoffitt posts:

//I suspect that there are two groups who have suffered more than any other as a consequence of the demise of the USSR: the Russian people and the United States. Yes, the entire country. We are virtually rudderless without the Soviet Union.//

I agree. Speaking as a child of the cold war (b. 1952) I believe that the moral superiority of the USA (such as it was) in the postwar years absolutely relied on the existence of the USSR as a countervailing force: without them there's no one whose sins are dense enough to make our side of the bipolar moral seesaw rise toward the sky.

cordially,

"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New You'd like Taosim.
A chapter from the Tao Te Ching reads in part:

"Under heaven, all can know beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness. All can know Good as Good only because there is Evil."

New Turn that around
Why did the USSR collapse? The single most fascinating article on this that I ran across was in the early 90's when I was reading through copies of the Whole Earth Review circa 1984 or so. The article was on how an alliance between the CIA and Roman Catholic Church enabled the US to funnel union efforts in the US into encouraging and supporting peaceful resistance in the form of the Solidarity movement in Poland. In the article this was described as a "successful experiment".

Reading this circa 1991 or so I could not help but think through a whole series of Soviet regimes that fell fairly shortly thereafter due to more than mildly similar movements.

What I have never seen commented on, but suspect, is that the CIA-Roman Catholic experiment was judged a success, and the effort was repeated on a larger scale with results that we now saw. Hurrah, us.

Flipping this around, I notice that a lot of the same people who would have been influential in any such decision back then are back in power now. And look like they are working for providing means to crack down on any similar kind of movement within the Western world today.

Coincidence? Or merely my dose of paranoia for tonight?

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New Re: Turn that around
Begs the question: was the collapse, brought about by whatever means, a good thing or no?
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New Not begging the question
To answer your question depends on understanding the full ramifications of the collapse. I think that the mode of collapse is relevant to that issue.

Is a political vacuum filled by international criminal gangs and Islamic fundamentalists better than brutal dictatorships and the ever-present danger of nuclear holocaust? If one does not live in one of said dictatorships, and the nuclear holocaust does not happen, then probably not. If either had happened, then what we have now is better, much better.

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New Re: Nuclear Holocaust.
Here is where I am my most Un-American. I think the Soviets were morally superior to us in this regard. It was only because Krushev was a far greater world citizen than Kennedy that nuclear exchange did not happen in October. (The facts were that we could reach them, but they could not reach us, hence they wanted to "balance" the threat we posed by placing missles in Cuba. Our response? Threaten the world with annihilation - Krushev backed down and left his country virtually defenseless, but the world in tact). And note that we remain the only nuclear power barbaric enough to have actually used nukes, not once but twice.

If the USSR had survived and if there was a nuclear exchange, you can bet dollars to donuts we would have made the first strike. Then, I ask, who is the real greater threat to humanity? Imo, the greater threat to humanity survived.
New Re: Nuclear Holocaust (10/62)
You are perhaps a bit (only a bit) unjust here: the Sov regime in 1962 had had experience in living memory of the devastation of their land; America had to look back to the 1860s--vivid as those memories might be to the Trent Lott set. Khruschev had a visceral sense of the stakes that Kennedy lacked, although a miscalculation forty years ago would have resulted in consequences direr than the outer reaches of either man's memories. I speak as one who remembers the stripped supermarket shevles of 10/62.

cordially,

"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New I think that applies a lot.
Sorry to take this off on a tangent, but I think you've hit something that still colours the US's policies today.

We do NOT have direct experience of living with the destruction of war.

We see it sanitized and Disney-fied at the movies.

But we don't live with it.
New f you use the word civilian in your sentence
Ill accept that. We have a lot of people that have seen war up close and blood on the fingers.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New Sorry, I didn't clarify that sufficiently.
That was what I meant when I said "We do NOT have direct experience of living with the destruction of war."

We go there, we kill people, we come back to our nice, safe families.

We go there, we bomb buildings, we come back to our nice, safe homes.

We live in a safe environment (or just about as safe as can be found). At times, we leave this environment to go inflict some pain and loss on others and then we come back.
New Re: The stakes.
This is what has troubled me since I was a little boy. Everything the Soviets did during the Cold War involving nuclear capability was a defensive action. And virtually everything we (the US) did was offensive. Indeed, it can well be argued that using two nukes in Japan was to send Soviet Russia a message.

Still, we proclaimed our innocense to the world. "We" were the good guys, "They" the bad. Our propaganda worked, and continues to work exceedingly well. Soviet propaganda, otoh, was not at all effective. I speak here of the people. In 1969, during the Cold War, if you were an American in the Soviet Union you were treated like gold. I speak here of personal experience. My father has returned to Russia several times since the fall and his experiences since the fall were much different. He has been mugged each time, once bad enough to be flown to medical facilities in Frankfort.

It seems now that they *know* us, they don't care much for us. Except, of course, for the new corrupt elite (including some old Bolsheviks) who can work now in concert with our corporations to exploit Russia and her people even more than the old Party ever did.

We are not now, nor have we ever been, good World Citizens.

I take heart in the knowledge that it is now our turn. It happened to the Ottoman Empire, the Roman Empire, the Turkish Empire, etc. We are, if we stay the course, going to fall as hard and as far as our imperialist predecessors.
New Defensive: an example.
It was Livermore Labs, under \ufffdgis of our Other (Hungarian) Strangelove misanthrope, the Dark Dr. Teller et al - who spawned, invented, started the MIRVing; this at a time (dates escape my mentation just now) when we were well ahead of the quantities and qualities of Holocaust-producing Peace Missiles extant, yada yada. There was indeed No Need - but we could so we did. Oblivious to consequences - as ever, when pursuing an insanely-Great new techno idea..

The USSR simply *had* to respond to this overt and cynical escalation. Ronnie was willing to quadruple (?) our Nat'l Debt to spend the USSR into submission; some believe that was a wise solution. But our laissez-faire penny-pinching (re assisting their conversion to a more US Bizness-friendly target of exploitation) - indicates the same short-term-gain mentality which drives everything we implement. 90 days / next election.

Our ongoing habits of er Christian Innocence won't soon dissipate (try turning the Other Cheek\ufffd to a Rumsfeld or worse!/earlier a Ego-besotted McNamara). It's part of the ingrained Disneyland fantasy that We Must be The Good since, God IS on Our Currency Side. Hey, this stuff Sells!

How else explain the inevitable next (and soon) Solo First-Strike.. no matter what anyone in the world says. We shall unleash a reservoir of hatred such that - You Ain't Seen Nothin Yet, Bub. And this - no matter how 'surgical' our techno-toys or how many $100K insurance policies we later bestow upon the collaterals we damage, on National Tee Vee.

Billy was able to buy off 7? 8? of the States - from pursuing legitimate legal redress from the barbarians. W and a lot of folk imagine we shall buy our way out of what is coming, keep the [oil] AND 'create' a nicely domesticated 'democratic' ME, *orchestrated to Dubya's dream of "fixing the World" (As-told-to - Woodward, recently)

* Tune: It's a Small Small Small Small World \ufffd Disney Galactic Corp

(Yes, they do think this way. No secret, that)


Hah; pass the WassUp? bowl,

Ashton,
just about off to enjoy a last Pre-War celeb of the Season
Hope you are 'off' to the same :-)
When the rich assemble to concern themselves with the business of the poor, it is called Charity. When the poor assemble to concern themselves with the business of the rich, it is called Anarchy.

-Paul Richards
New Re: The stakes.
And what happened on the ground did it not trouble you?

From the Elbe River in Germany to Vladivostok (Владивосток) and on to the Bering Straits 12 timezones to the East you had the Soviet Union and it's client states. That's ignoring Cuba! And "revolutions" fomenting in other places in Central and South America, Africa, and Asia. These were defensive actions? Give me a break!
Alex

"No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session."\t-- Mark Twain
New Of course! that is the "other side"
of an infinite series of stimulus/response == the Same Game as makes the Palestinian/Israeli matter just as insoluble:

from present juvenile Eye-for Eye Old Testament mindsets, forged in ignorance and superstitions of the past.

I may be cracked, but - I deem that escalating the already significant risk of nuclear winter for All Species, via MIRV escalation: is on another scale from all of these ordinary, predictable homo-sap Power-quests. That was obscene, despicable and we started it.

(As of 12/25/02: ICBM response time is still TWO MINUTES, last I heard from the hardened grapevine)


Ashton
When the rich assemble to concern themselves with the business of the poor, it is called Charity. When the poor assemble to concern themselves with the business of the rich, it is called Anarchy.

-Paul Richards
New Re: Not begging the question
//Is a political vacuum filled by international criminal gangs and Islamic fundamentalists better than brutal dictatorships and the ever-present danger of nuclear holocaust?//

My point was, that is *not* the choice. Brezhnev's USSR was gone well before Gorbachev's USSR perished. Had Gorbachev succeeded in morphing the national entity he inherited into a civilized member of the international community--and remember that it's not to our moral advantage to regard the mere possession of genocidal-capable quantities of armaments as evidence of evil intent--would it not be preferable from the standpoint of *our* imperial maintenance of the status quo to have a fellow empire with a stake in the bipolar world?

cordially,

"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New I don't think that assumption of yours is right
The nuclear holocaust scenario was a given as long as the USA and USSR remained facing each other. Certainly there were - and are - many in the USA who would make it politically unacceptable for us to reduce our armnament levels.

As for dictatorships, Gorbachev tried to make changes. But he was working within an organization that was very repressive, with client governments that were even more so. Not to mention that many of the dictatorships that I was referring to were ours, not theirs.

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New Re: I don't think that assumption of yours is right
//The nuclear holocaust scenario was a given as long as the USA and USSR remained facing each other.//

Not necessarily. Had the USA and USSR the wit and will to arrive at a rapprochment forty years ago we could by now have carved up the so-called Third World (deprived of the opportunity to play one superpower against another) like the Christmas roast, and be feasting on its resources uncontested to this day. Absent that ruinous rivalry a dimestore Stalin like Saddam Hussein would never have been suffered to arise.

cordially,

"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New Um, the US needs enemies
It is politically convenient for those in charge to have a well-known and easily identified enemy for rhetorical purposes. Had it not been the USSR, it would be someone else.

Just like Saddam Hussein and Al Queda have been volunteered to be now.

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New Re: Um, the US needs enemies
But of course we need enemies!

And why not choose these from among the many populations who are weak enough for us to exploit but not strong enough (absent a lapse in our vigilance) to present a serious threat?

In other words, if one potential enemy has a zillion nuclear-tipped ICBMs and another can only muster, on a good day, half a dozen Boeing 757s, do you want to go for Door Number One or Door Number Two?

cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Expand Edited by rcareaga Dec. 21, 2002, 11:06:28 PM EST
New ya go for the one you can find
example from our history, Indians scalp whites, whites try looking for rogue Indians. Cant find any so go to the reservation where they know there is Indians and massacree them. Black man rapes white women, we cant identify him so we know where to find black men. Conversely in the Raj days, a member of the watch goes into the market and drags a thief back to be tortured. He didnt do the specific crime but a lesson is learned after all. "Somebody Pays"
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New Does this explain...?
Why we are going after Iraq instead of Northern Korea?

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New bingo!
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New from the fringes I'm boxley
The USSR hegemony versus the west kept a simmering pot from boiling over. We needed them as a counter balance to ensure an equality of greed both east and west. Did the Russian Mob prosper as much before or after the KGB was gutted? Did the rebel leftists in various anti western tone down prospective terror actions do to their russian masters directives? Certainly. Do we live in a safer world? Of course not, so a further realignment globally is needed. The one world government envisioned by the elite will never happen. Satrap's kowtowing to a foreign power that will grind them into dust if ignored is the history of this world. We need a balance against us so we do not overestimate our ability to control these vicious little entities called tribes who have badly designed colonial boundries. Our time in history is similar to the 400-800 age where roving bands of warrior merchants evade the clumsy leftovers of romans legions. Interesting times indeed.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New an additional thought
An American journalist in the USSR in the late 1970s--I can't remember which; *might* have been Andrea Lee--had an encounter with a Sov who, probably in his cups, said something to the effect of "The ideals my country has betrayed are nobler than the ideals *your* country has betrayed." The sentiment as expressed seems very characteristically Russian, ideologies apart, but how think you, my auditors, about the actual sense of the assertion?

cordially,

"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New as you said, veritas in vino
What was betrayed was the proles at the expense of the burghers for the benefits of the bosses. Here we betrayed the bosses at the expense of the proles.
thanx,
bill
mediocrity uber alles
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New Re: as you said, veritas in vino
Seems to me the betrayed bosses have done damned well for themselves, then.

cordially,

"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New betrayed bosses meaning fathers of our country :-)
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New Couldn't agree more.
But you must understand that the stated ideals of this country are a fiction. The entire history of our independence can most accurately be summed up as follows:

1. Wealthy aristocrats (read The Founding Fathers(tm) )were given huge tracts of land to come to the Colonies and set up shop collecting taxes.
2. In further compensation for collecting taxes for the Crown, these aristocrats got to keep a part of the taxes collected.
3. After a while, these aristocrats realized that if they could get the ill-educated masses to believe that the burden of taxes was all the Crown's fault, they could break away from the Crown and keep all taxes themselves. This would make them even more obscenely wealthy than they already were.
4. The succeed in their propaganda and the Revolutionary War is fought.
5. At the end of the RW, taxes go UP!
6. Seeing they have no more "representation" than they did under the King, a group headed by a Revolutionary War hero (Daniel Shay) attempts to exercise their new "Constitutinal Right" to protest and heads to the capital.
7. They are slaughtered. The rest now "get it".

It took Andrew Jackson to introduce the notion of democracy. Democracy was not on the minds of the vaulted "Founding Fathers". Plutocracy was their game. And plutocracy is what we have had since.

So, yes, the ideals betrayed by the US are far worse, if and only if you are the sort who believes in equality.
New what disney book did you read that in?
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New Being there (USSR), 5 universities, numerous lectures, etc.
What part are you claiming is factually inaccurate? The Founders weren't tax collectors? They weren't given huge land grants? They weren't the landed aristocracy? Shay's Rebellion didn't occur or wasn't put down?

Nice drive by, but I'm calling you on this one.
New not a prob will get to it in a bit in a new thread
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New Here we go rebuttal to mmoffet on Founding Land Grants (new thread)
Created as new thread #70744 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=70744|Here we go rebuttal to mmoffet on Founding Land Grants]
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New Methinks the method of the breakup outweighs the fact.
An idea of, 'Confederation of Independent States' appears to have sprung the USSR into a US pre- Civil War scenario.. all unprepared and with the focus upon the chimera of 'Capitalism' while destroying the synergy of a (truly) federal grouping by choice.

Then too, the official US laissez-faire policy, augmented with the worst of capitalist exploitation of the new kids - guaranteed to create mistrust of a whole new kind between US/ former USSR States: simple greed, dissembling in action. We stood around impotent and disinterested - rationalizing away great opportunity for real assistance and long-term mutual benefit. And the Jingoists' greatest fear was realized: nothing left to Hate! unquivocally.

(My thought at the time of Berlin wall was: had we granted the remnants a blanket half a trillion $, spread over a time that reflected their ability to use it sanely: we would have been ahead of the M.A.D. incipient oblivion game, echoed the ideals of the Marshall Plan and - probably made more $$ over the period of disbursement than we gave.) We have few with any vision, especially among the sated.. Gawd are our present Dynasts unutterably boring in their aim for ez short-term killings.

In brief - hindsight being so handy - it's easy to plot a quite different course than what has occurred: a US-aped concentration of the newly divided pie into the same sorts of pockets as in the US. As in US, where the same 3% of the GDP is shared by ~ 13,000 at the top - and 20,000,000 at the bottom, the mass of the Russ poorest got screwed with outside help from real Pros - US.

So are 'we / all' better off, despite the tawdry rapine? Yes re the reduced likelihood of MAD ICBM scenarios - but we all have done poorly compared with your hypothetical of a saner transition. Would need to know more details than I do, to estimate whether Gorbachev lacked crucial other qualities to accompany his obv intelligence, or if: the factions were simply too stubborn to ever cooperate effectively (?)

A nice what-if, but moot.. Putin has a scary side, but also is too complex a guy (like K?) to be pigeonholed with old rubrics.


Cheers,

Ashton
When the rich assemble to concern themselves with the business of the poor, it is called Charity. When the poor assemble to concern themselves with the business of the rich, it is called Anarchy.

-Paul Richards
New Re: Methinks the method of the breakup outweighs the fact.
Nicely set forth. As to " the Jingoists' greatest fear was realized: nothing left to Hate!" -- I've often wondered whether the bilious quality of American politics during the 1990s might have been partially metabolic in nature, a consequence of our being obliged to consume domestically much of the rhetorical poison we had formerly produced for export. Then again, we're back to our old patterns of Designated Hitler (yesterday al Qaeda; today Iraq--Eurasia, Eastasia, war without end)--and I've yet to descry the better angels of our nature fluttering home.

cordially,

"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New Hmmm ____the homeopathic theory of ingrained Hate
as Will Come Out.. if suppressed by the normal simplistic AMA rubric of 'treating symptoms' !! (never mind looking for a cure. No pharm-chem sales in That!)

I. Like. It.

In one swell foop you have linked a pair of our fav language atrocities into a veritable 'OS' ! with all the charm and wisdom of M$ Bob ... the little innovation which revealed the actual Campus IQ level.

{smoky mirror} {harp arpeggios suspiciously Hammond-organ like}

I see a warehouse full of various sized packets, each labelled Hate\ufffd \ufffd, juuuust Like that warehous full of gaily-wrapped Bob! boxes.

[Advertainment 'man']: Hey.. let's market this here; tell 'em it's corn-fed from Iowa and it's part of the RDA for all Real Muricans - and.. Mail-In rebate for your next Service Pack of 99.44% pure Malice! Yup, it'll fly.. in this dense atmosphere.


Tis the Season to be Jolly* == IT's the pre-WAR SEASON! :-)

(now the Brits attach a rather different meaning to That word)
When the rich assemble to concern themselves with the business of the poor, it is called Charity. When the poor assemble to concern themselves with the business of the rich, it is called Anarchy.

-Paul Richards
New Hitlers without end.
I'll take a different tack than Ashton.

It isn't that we have to hate anyone or anything.

It is that we don't know how to NOT hate anyone or anything anymore.

Rather than taking that energy and working to build ourselves up (is this the best we can accomplish).....

We take the easy route of finding a scape goat for all the problems in the world.

If we could just get Osama, terrorism would end.

If we could just get Saddam, the mid-east would be peaceful.

The beauty of this system is that there will always be ANOTHER Hitler. Someone, somewhere is doing something that goes against our basic, democratic, humanitarian beliefs.

This is because we are funding most of them in some manner.

The US is in decline. We cannot conceive of greater accomplishments. Well, we can think about conceiving them. But that's as far as we ever get. We put the first man on the moon. But we still haven't made it to Mars. Nor does it look like the USofA ever will. And so on.

We've stopped trying to be better and we've substituted the Hitler du jour to give us the illusion that we're still alive.
New But Hatred is always derived from Fear.
And when you are possessed of the illusions of Disneyland sanitized Murica, there's always that Downhill you mention - to Fear.

The Homo-bashing callow male? - well, we know what That Fear is about. Ditto the Fundamentalist - My (S)creed is dying out! Hate Louder !! yada

Especially when you look around and notice that your 'sliding' is accelerating.. Maybe what the Murican Dreamer hates most then, is Gravity?


Ashton
When the rich assemble to concern themselves with the business of the poor, it is called Charity. When the poor assemble to concern themselves with the business of the rich, it is called Anarchy.

-Paul Richards
New Winding it up
(Today, incidentally, marks eleven years since the USSR closed up shop and the hammer & sickle fluttered down from over the Kremlin for the last time.) As a newbie here I was gratified and frankly astonished at the average level of civility and conscious thought exhibited in the responses to this thread. No one--no one at all, as far as I could see--took up the easy red-baiting cudgel (a long-discredited rhetorical technique that each generation seems to reinvent anew, marveling at its self-evident efficacy as a crushing riposte), and even the most trenchant rejoinders appeared to be delivered with a welcome want of hysteria. You guys are a classy bunch.

cordially,

"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New Don't be a stranger.. :-)
As doubtless you have noted, new blood is needed. Too often it is as silly to 'debate' political ideas here (too) as is measurable by the frequency with which the 'sides' are seen to coalesce about ~

Jingoists -VS- Comm-symp Libruls cha cha cha
(Talk about ancient rhetoric from my Gramma's time)

But at best, and through the (ulp - now years!) there have occurred memorable discussions on just about all the taboo subjects we Muricans are so fond of 'adding to the proscribed list' (Lest the Cheeldrun - non-voters all - are disturbed from their manic humming of the mantra, It's a Small Small ... Small World \ufffd).


Vaya con Diogenes,

Ashton
speaking for The Murican Peepul
When the rich assemble to concern themselves with the business of the poor, it is called Charity. When the poor assemble to concern themselves with the business of the rich, it is called Anarchy.

-Paul Richards
     Long time, no Sov - (rcareaga) - (40)
         From the Left, I'm Mike Moffitt. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
             Re: From the Left, I'm Mike Moffitt. - (rcareaga) - (1)
                 You'd like Taosim. - (mmoffitt)
         Turn that around - (ben_tilly) - (19)
             Re: Turn that around - (rcareaga) - (18)
                 Not begging the question - (ben_tilly) - (17)
                     Re: Nuclear Holocaust. - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                         Re: Nuclear Holocaust (10/62) - (rcareaga) - (7)
                             I think that applies a lot. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                 f you use the word civilian in your sentence - (boxley) - (1)
                                     Sorry, I didn't clarify that sufficiently. - (Brandioch)
                             Re: The stakes. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                 Defensive: an example. - (Ashton)
                                 Re: The stakes. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                     Of course! that is the "other side" - (Ashton)
                     Re: Not begging the question - (rcareaga) - (7)
                         I don't think that assumption of yours is right - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                             Re: I don't think that assumption of yours is right - (rcareaga) - (5)
                                 Um, the US needs enemies - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                     Re: Um, the US needs enemies - (rcareaga) - (3)
                                         ya go for the one you can find - (boxley)
                                         Does this explain...? - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                             bingo! -NT - (rcareaga)
         from the fringes I'm boxley - (boxley) - (9)
             an additional thought - (rcareaga) - (8)
                 as you said, veritas in vino - (boxley) - (2)
                     Re: as you said, veritas in vino - (rcareaga) - (1)
                         betrayed bosses meaning fathers of our country :-) -NT - (boxley)
                 Couldn't agree more. - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                     what disney book did you read that in? -NT - (boxley) - (3)
                         Being there (USSR), 5 universities, numerous lectures, etc. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                             not a prob will get to it in a bit in a new thread -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                 Here we go rebuttal to mmoffet on Founding Land Grants (new thread) - (boxley)
         Methinks the method of the breakup outweighs the fact. - (Ashton) - (4)
             Re: Methinks the method of the breakup outweighs the fact. - (rcareaga) - (3)
                 Hmmm ____the homeopathic theory of ingrained Hate - (Ashton)
                 Hitlers without end. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                     But Hatred is always derived from Fear. - (Ashton)
         Winding it up - (rcareaga) - (1)
             Don't be a stranger.. :-) - (Ashton)

Hello, world.
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