Re: You'd trust the Swiss over the US?

Post #70,042 by rcareaga 12/19/02 9:23:15 PM Reply	Re: You'd trust the Swiss over the US? Let me see if I understand you: the matter is in doubt. But it is the duty of a properly patriotic American reflexively to trust the word of "our" experts (analysts of Central Intelligence, were they not?) over the notoriously...well, the notoriously neutral Swiss, whatever the merits of the arguments. Incidentally, "real" Americans were not given to saying "homeland" until just recently. Indeed, they would have been justly mocked for the usage. This being the case, why not continue mocking? cordially, ___________________________________ "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #70,044 by rcareaga 12/19/02 9:27:18 PM Reply	oops My irony detector may have been miscalibrated when I first determined to respond to post 70014. cordially, ____________________________________ "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #70,053 by Brandioch 12/19/02 10:09:12 PM Reply	You must be new here. :) Welcome! Sorry, there's a bit of background you'll be missing. #1. Marlowe thinks that everything the US does is "right" and "good". #2. Marlowe thinks that any time the "Europeans" disagree with the US, the "Europeans" are spoiled brats who had their asses saved by the US and are looking for any way to regain their moral superiority. If the US wants to invade Iraq, but various European countries do not want to participate, then they are being willfully ignorant of the situation. Finally, none of the above applies if Marlowe wants something to be "true". Then he will take anybody's (emphasis on the anybody) word that such and such is factual. Read some of his past postings. They're very amusing. :)
Post #70,058 by rcareaga 12/19/02 10:29:02 PM Reply	Re: You must be new here. :) I am indeed new (actually brought here by references in another forum posted by one of your most notorious Multiple Avatar Disorder members). I don't do fora much anymore, precisely because of the thuggishness prevailing in most venues these latter years. This one appears uncommonly civilized. As to the notion that everything the US does is "right" or "good," the most I'm prepared to concede is that German or Soviet hegemony in the half-century since 1945 would likely have been nastier than the American version. In the world that did develop, however, ours has been a pretty brutal, albeit squeamish, empire. You might imagine from this that I run with the Nader/Choamsky crowd, but I've also got a problem with people who reap the material benefits of American imperialism (as I and many others do) while disavowing the moral complicity attending thereto. cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #70,061 by ben_tilly 12/19/02 10:47:44 PM Reply	Welcome then Fair warning. Some of the topics get much more heated than the others. Politics and War on Terrorism in particular are skipped by a lot of people. Oh, and enjoy your stay. :-) Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #70,137 by SpiceWare 12/20/02 2:35:20 PM Reply	I like that! Multiple Avatar Disorder - MAD syndrome Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #70,201 by deSitter 12/20/02 10:17:24 PM Reply	Re: You must be new here. :) In the world that did* develop, however, ours has been a pretty brutal, albeit squeamish, empire.* This is horsedung - we don't have an empire, never had an empire, never will have an empire. Imperialism is abhorrent to Americans. Even to use the word in passing is offensive to a patriot. -drl
Post #70,204 by boxley 12/20/02 11:20:05 PM Reply	We are in empircal mode since the Monroe doctrine has been extended to the World. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
Post #70,213 by ben_tilly 12/21/02 2:39:22 AM Reply	There are none who so blind as he who will not see The USA is an imperial force upon this Earth, and any "patriot" who is offended merely does not wish to recognize the truth of this. If it was utterly false, then there would be no grounds for offence to be taken, and likewise no puppet dictatorships, toy wars, etc. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #70,214 by Andrew Grygus 12/21/02 2:59:42 AM Reply	The United States is an imperial power that . . . . . prefers to rule territory economically rather than militariy - but militariy will do fine if it comes to that. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #70,252 by deSitter 12/21/02 2:15:25 PM Reply	Re: The United States is an imperial power that . . . That makes all the difference. There is nothing wrong with spreading the benefits of a market economy. Our "colonies" never have to declare independence from us - unless you count Panama as a colony. We haven't forced Puerto Rico into statehood - it's up to them. Manifest Destiny is an historical curiosity that was discredited even by the time of the Mexican War (1847-8). Grant, who served gallantly in that war, repudiated it, and was not alone. MD did have one huge success - it was pronounced upon the South and made to stick. -drl
Post #70,260 by ben_tilly 12/21/02 4:06:16 PM Reply	Bullshit on Manifest Destiny Manifest Destiny was outmoded when the US was busy annexing half of Mexico? That would be news to Mexico. And news a couple of decades later to Canada when it joined together for mutual defence in 1867 against the threats of the same happening to it. Threats delivered by William Seward who in the same time frame (1866) pusued the same end more peacefully by buying Alaska. Some historical curiousity. Flavouring US actions decades after it was "discredited", and driving politics across the rest of the continent This history of US relations with its neighbours resembles the relationship between a neighbourhood bully and his past targets. The bully doesn't like to admit that he was a bully, and constantly pretends surprise when past targets of his abuse are resentful about it. Regards, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #70,403 by Brandioch 12/22/02 4:53:42 PM Reply	"past targets"? The bully doesn't like to admit that he was a bully, and constantly pretends surprise when past targets of his abuse are resentful about it. Why are you using the past tense? Aren't there enough current examples? "Current" being defined as happening within the last 20 years. We aren't JUST a bully. We're a RICH BULLY. And we can pay people to do our dirty work when we don't want to sully our hands.
Post #70,408 by ben_tilly 12/22/02 5:18:56 PM Reply	I use the past tense because... ...the countries most directly affected by the past policy of Manifest Destiny are currently US allies. (As if they had a realistic choice about it...) Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #70,277 by rcareaga 12/21/02 7:24:59 PM Reply	Re: You must be new here. :) //we don't have an empire, never had an empire, never will have an empire// When I employed the term I had in mind as an audience people whose understanding of it was not formed by George Lucas. Of course we're an empire. We do not, as 7% of the world's population, get to consume 40% of its resources merely because we are clever and virtuous (I don't, incidentally, have a problem with 7%/40% disparity in itself--certainly as an American citizen I find it personally more congenial than I would were the numbers reversed--but I don't regard the numbers and the measures taken to maintain them as reasons for the rest of the world to love us). It requires the maintenance of a global network of clients, puppets, alliances of convenience. Since WWII we've particularly favored working through regimes who can do the dirty work on our behalf, so that Uncle Sam's gloves can retain at least the appearance of whiteness. And like any mature empire... //Even to use the word in passing is offensive to a patriot// --we are indignant when the loftiness of our purpose is questioned. Don't these ignorant savages understand that we're expending blood and treasure to bring them peace and enlightenment? Why are they such ungrateful and churlish wretches? This was true of Rome; of the British Empire; of the Sovs (Ivan Sixpack used to complain of all the subsidies provided to the ungrateful Eastern Europeans); and, of course, of the Land of the Free. If it comforts you to buy into the myth of a benign national purpose, you are welcome to it, but you run the risk of appearing too cute for words when you earnestly argue the case for Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy to the grownups. cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #70,415 by Ashton 12/22/02 6:08:35 PM Reply	Now look here,__[cackle] __ Mr. rc If perchance you were a lieder fan, I could imagine yer droppin in one o' my favs from the immortal Franz: Mein schatz hats gr\ufffdn so gern.. (The er pretty miller's daughter's ex-swain's drippingly sarcastic odious-ode to her new infatuation mit Der J\ufffdger ie He Knows He's Toast) (Of course - where That 'green' was about a hunter's typ outfit du jour - with the US: it be Our Only God and no mistake) Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. When the rich assemble to concern themselves with the business of the poor, it is called Charity. When the poor assemble to concern themselves with the business of the rich, it is called Anarchy. -Paul Richards
Post #70,584 by deSitter 12/23/02 8:54:02 PM Reply	Re: You must be new here. :) Not accepted. Your lib-simp-faux-rationlisme leaves me cold. Ill. I avoid the bloodless. -drl
Post #70,743 by rcareaga 12/24/02 11:10:46 PM Reply	Re: You must be new here. :) //Not accepted. Your lib-simp-faux-rationlisme leaves me cold. Ill. I avoid the bloodless.// You must perforce remain cold, ill and bloody. cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #70,290 by rcareaga 12/21/02 8:58:04 PM Reply	a cleareyed defense of imperialism ...was delivered by Winston Churchill, then First Sea Lord, to Parliament a few months before the outbreak of World War I. He spoke in defense of a proposal to spend 52,800,000 pounds sterling to build four new dreadnoughts--the sine qua non of military might in that era, roughly equivalent to today's nuclear submarines, long-range bombers, cruise missiles, ICBMs and strategic missile defense rolled into one. It is remarkably unsentimental, apart from one necessary nod to the fiction of noble purpose: "Two things have to be considered: First, that our diplomacy depends in great part for its effectiveness upon our naval position, and that our naval strength is the one great balancing force which we can contribute to our own safety and to the peace of the world [emphasis added--the obligatory touch of selflessness]. Second, we are not a young people with a blank record and a scant inheritance. We have won for ourselves, in times when other powerful nations were paralysed by barbarism or internal war, an exceptional, disproportionate share of the wealth and traffic of the world. We have got all we want in territory, but our claim to be left in undisputed enjoyment of vast and splendid possessions, largely acquired by war and largely maintained by force, is one which often seems less reasonable to others than to us." "largely acquired by war and largely maintained by force" -- doesn't resemble the spheres of influence of anyone I know--how 'bout you? cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #70,395 by Brandioch 12/22/02 3:29:25 PM Reply	Don't forget the "peace" part. Peace is usually defined as no one trying to take the stuff I want. I never viewed "diplomacy" as requiring military might. I always thought that was a "threat" or "ultimatum" www.dictionary.com Ultimatum: A statement, especially in diplomatic negotiations, that expresses or implies the threat of serious penalties if the terms are not accepted. We have got all we want in territory, but our claim to be left in undisputed enjoyment of vast and splendid possessions, largely acquired by war and largely maintained by force, is one which often seems less reasonable to others than to us. Translation: We took it by military might and you should NOT try to take it from us by military might.
Post #70,059 by bepatient 12/19/02 10:32:59 PM Reply	Well... ...in the AP we have A U.S. official had said earlier that counterterrorism officials believed the new audiotape attributed to bin Laden is probably authentic. "It's probably his voice," said the official, speaking on the condition of anonymity. "It cannot be said with absolute certainty." Hmm...I remember reading something about [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=69981\|unnamed sources] a while back. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]

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