Post #6,868
8/27/01 5:29:05 PM
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Toyota Prius?
I rode in one a bit back, and due to some, er, issues with the new car that I got my wife (like it bloody doesn't work, damnit!) I'm going to be taking it back and getting her something else.
The Prius looks nice, is VERY quiet, and seems like it gets good mileage. Anybody have any thoughts?
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #6,873
8/27/01 5:41:53 PM
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Hybrids sound nice, but make me nervous.
[link|http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/43877/article.html|Edmunds] has a review of the Prius. Edmunds is also a good site for discussion about cars, info on prices, etc. [link|http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/roadtests/2001/March/200103_roadtest_prius.xml?keywords=Prius|Car and Driver] has a review. CandD didn't get very good mileage with it: Alas, for Earth-firsters the Prius and hybrid Honda Insight represent irrefutable proof that cars can be practical, affordable, and stingy. We will not attempt to wrestle with that logic here, only some of the facts behind it. Over 900 miles of mostly typical daily commuting, our Prius motored an average of 35 miles and 844 feet on every gallon of gas. That's a zero-percent improvement over the Japanese home-market version we tested in February 1999 and 20 percent below the EPA's official city rating.
A Nissan Sentra GXE tested last June as part of a 13-car comparison of entry-level sedans turned in 28 mpg. Toyota's own five-speed Echo pulled a lofty 33-mpg on the same drive while offering nearly identical interior space, a 0-to-60-mph time 4.2 seconds quicker, and an as-tested price $6591 lower. And both do so without the motive aid and expense of an electric motor, a generator, a very nifty continuously variable planetary gear transmission, and four computers to run this sausage factory. Toyota said it was a function of the cold weather... The Honda Insight gets better mileage, but is much smaller and only a 2 seater. I worry about the cost of replacing the Ni:MH batteries and none of the reviews I've read talk about it... Good luck. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #6,881
8/27/01 6:07:33 PM
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Points well take.
IIRC too, some previous econo-VTEC Honda Civics of ~6 years ago, beat the magical 50 on hiway, only sl. less so-called town..
I too would worry about the inherent complexity of two not-quite independent power systems. In fact the performance demands their rather complex interaction:
making use of the 'max torque at 0 rpm' of the electric + the usual torque curves for gas but: modifed engine / cam and timing - to exploit near-constant RPM efficiencies.
Were it 'disposable $' (Hah!) I'd be sorely tempted by Prius also. It would bother me though, likely being unable to get a schematic, detailed manual for it all.. I suspect they made some proprietary test-boxes for dealers; nada for owners. Still, with a scope + schematic - nothing which the boxes do for illiterates: you couldn't psych out (with schem. also of the test boxes and the specs).
Still and all - MTBF of TWO systems yada yada; likely many cheap e- items are encased in welded expen$ive alloy boxes, just as with the other rip-offs for modern look-alike cars:
Sometimes a mere thermistor! resides in such a box and costs $175. The computers for these cars likely have ProLiant prices too :[
Ignorance kills but also bankrupts - just look at yer local NT server farm.. (AS-400? "many instances of *nix"? what's That?)
Nice try though..
A.
skeptical applause for both mfg.
Ashton
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Post #6,917
8/27/01 11:50:20 PM
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At least you're NOT looking at a SUV!
A new(er) car is probably about two years off for me, since both of mine are running OK.
But I've been checking out what fun to drive, affordable, decent gas milage, but still roomy vehicles are available (I'd like something I can use to haul furniture such as a 72" high rack mount, which won't fit in my Sable -- and I get tired of begging for the use of my friend's F150 SuperCrew).
A very common solution in Europe is the diesel engine; I saw them all over the place -- and they can go fast. I'm pretty sure that the new Turbo Diesels also have low emissions and decent performance. Unfortunately, I think VW is only one to sell them in the US (in Europe, the list includes at least Mercedes, VW, Audi, Ford, Volvo, and Citroen). The Jetta TDI, for example, starts at about $18K and gets an EPA 42/49 mpg (w/manual). Unfortunately, diesel fuel isn't readily available in the US.
An ordinary compact car will probably be a better choice than either a hybrid or diesel; the Honda Civic is EPA 30/38mpg and start at considerably less than the Jetta. Pickup and SUV's, including compact ones (e.g. Nissan Xterra / Frontier), tend to get rather bad gas mileage (<20mpg).
Edmunds is a good resource; they probably have forums for both hybrids, and I know they've sold some, since I've seen both the Insight and Prius around here (but they aren't common).
Good luck!
Tony
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Post #6,951
8/28/01 10:05:13 AM
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Diesel is readily available
not on every corner true but those tractors have to fill up somewhere. When I was last in the Pac NW is seemed available.
OT just picked up a 89 buick skylark 2.5 4 cyl front wheel drive to do the commute with, conversion van was costing $60 per week. The car was free just had been sitting for 3 years. Chage fluids and one caliper so far, milage appears to be excellent.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
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Post #6,952
8/28/01 10:12:25 AM
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Congrats on the Skylark! It's hard to beat a free car. :-)
Years ago I got a 1966 Olds F-85 that way. It had been sitting for a year or so and needed a battery. I rebuilt the carb and replaced the plugs, points and wires. It was a good little car and I never had trouble with it. 2 door, 2 speed automatic with a 330 CID V-8, no A/C.
I still miss it. <snif> :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #7,167
8/29/01 11:30:15 PM
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It'd still be an issue -- got to know where to get fuel
I still might end up with a TDI (e.g. maybe Jetta TDI wagon), but I'd have to think about it because most gas stations don't have diesel. I do know of a couple stations here that have it, but they're not the closest ones, etc.
Now, in Germany and Spain, just about every station had diesel (heck, in Spain they all had leaded, too! Back in 1993, unleaded was new there.), and I'd say maybe 15-20% of the cars were diesel.
Tony
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Post #7,294
8/30/01 9:47:33 PM
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Diesel fuel? Duh.
>>I still might end up with a TDI (e.g. maybe Jetta TDI wagon), but I'd have to think about it because most gas stations don't have diesel.
Huh? Where do you live?
Around here, and over in the FW/Dallas Metromess, it's unusual to find a gas station that doesn't have diesel, although not like in Europe -- it's not part of the farm of pumps in the main line. Generally a separate pump, often off to the side, where you kin git a hoss trailer in an' out reel easy. Also true all over the West. I suppose it's rarer in raised-pinkie land, but even there the truck stop can't be all that far away; the guys who bring you your brie have to fill up somewhere :-)
Diesel pickups are all the rage -- Dodge/Cummins did some real good marketing there. My neighbor has a Ford dualie, rattle rattle rattle.
Regards,
Ric
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Post #7,306
8/31/01 4:40:53 AM
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Duh what?
Here in Cincinnati area, I don't remember the last time I saw a gas station with diesel fuel. Hell, last time I saw it was at an Indiana truck stop.
Nope, diesel is out of the question for me.
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
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Post #7,318
8/31/01 10:00:56 AM
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No truck stops nearby?
Well, I have *ahem* heard, that diesel engines run just peachy on kerosene.
(And cooking oil, but that's definately a "heard" but I want to try to see)
Not that its *ahem* legal to use Kerosene or heating oil to fuel a car, without paying the highway taxes... and certainly I don't know of anybody with a big heating oil tank installed in a warm climate... who owns all diesel vehicles. :)
Addison
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Post #7,385
8/31/01 8:45:01 PM
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Alternatives to Diesel Fuel
It's been a while since I was in Cincinnati. Cleveland, now, no problem buying diesel (although true, not at every neighborhood station).
Yes, no. 2 fuel oil (the clear stuff, NOT the ugly black type) is essentially the same as diesel. If you want to cover your bets, take a trip out to the airport and buy a can of Prist -- an additive that prevents mold growth. Yes, Virginia, there are molds that eat diesel fuel and fuel oil. (This is actually a good technique for your fuel oil tanks as well. Heater burners aren't as picky about purity as jet engines are, but the black stuff in your tank is not corrosion.)
As for vegetable oils, sure. Works fine, actually reduces the level of particulate emissions. Of course, the rest of the folk in the traffic will be salivating and looking for the popcorn machine, but that's their problem, innit?
Regards,
Ric
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Post #7,388
8/31/01 9:28:53 PM
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dont let the tax man catch you
there is a reason for the color difference.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
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Post #6,920
8/28/01 1:10:26 AM
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I've commented on my test drive several times.
I don't like their price, right now (though its still heavily subsidized), but the performance around the Cisco campus was quite impressive.
If you do a lot of city driving, it should kick a lot of ass.
If you do a lot of highway driving, much less so.
Roomy, though, for the small frame, surprised me.
Addison
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