Post #68,447
12/12/02 4:29:53 PM
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Just used GRUB for the first time...
As Greg would say:
Uhhhhhhhh.... WOW!!
Hot damn, but that's secksie!
Being a new GRUB user, I of course completely hosed my menu.lst file. Did it matter? Nope. Hit 'e' on that line and you can edit your hosed configuration and retry it... niiiiiiice.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #68,451
12/12/02 4:46:34 PM
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Awww... Shucks....
Sure is to...
640x480x14 Color Graphics can be displayed at boot time...
;)
[link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!]
Your friendly Geheime Staatspolizei reminds: [link|http://www.wired.com/news/wireless/0,1382,56742,00.html|Wi-Fi enabled device use] comes with an all inclusive free trip to the (county)Photographer! Overbooking, is a problem, please be prepared for "room-ies".
Why You ask? Here is the answer to your query: SELECT * FROM politicians WHERE iq > 40 OR \\ WHERE ego < 1048575; 0 rows found
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Post #68,512
12/12/02 10:08:31 PM
12/12/02 10:10:14 PM
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What's Wrong With Me?
When I hear stories like this, I CRINGE. Now, is it because I don't get Linux? That can't be, given what I've been through with USB and this laptop. I pretty much solved a really hard problem. But GRUB will never even approach any machine that I have to LOOK at, much less work on. The whole GRUB-Debian-GNOME-MOZILLA-GIMP-MP3 thing just makes me shiver. NONE of that stuff has ANYTHING to do with what I understand as cool and beautiful in systems. How can I be so wrong?
-drl
Edited by deSitter
Dec. 12, 2002, 10:09:07 PM EST
Edited by deSitter
Dec. 12, 2002, 10:10:14 PM EST
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Post #68,541
12/12/02 11:30:17 PM
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Re: What's Wrong With Me?
GRUB-Debian-GNOME-MOZILLA-GIMP-MP3
GRUB - knocks lilo into a cocked hat. If you screw up your config, you can edit it at boot time.
Debian - Where to start... the package management + policy is unbelievable. I'm not even running it fully yet and it's hands down the best way I've seen to Linux so far.
Gnome - nuff said. We disagree.
Mozilla - Konqueror sucks ass. No tabs. Been talked to death.
Gimp - NOW what are you on about??
MP3 - digital music. If you don't get it, you don't get it.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #68,599
12/13/02 10:00:47 AM
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Re: What's Wrong With Me?
LILO is a flippin' boot manager - it's up for 3 seconds and gone. It works - why change? If I was going to install a boot manager for coolness, it would be the OS/2 boot manager.
Debian - why? Even if it's the best thing since APL\\360, I *like* the idea of a large commercial interest that does Linux, with the right attitude, so I am happy to give my money to SuSE once or twice a year.
Mozilla - still Netscape after all these years.
Gimp - it's a fine graphics program. It's hyarge. It has a stupid name.
MP3 - I've never heard one, including the high bandwidth ones, that didn't sound like mud. Whatever lossy things ripping does, I can hear it. The ear is not as easily fooled as the eye.
I'm just not cool. I'm n00b, I am not l337.
-drl
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Post #68,607
12/13/02 10:13:12 AM
12/13/02 11:18:44 AM
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Re: What's Wrong With Me?
LILO is a flippin' boot manager - it's up for 3 seconds and gone. It works - why change? If I was going to install a boot manager for coolness, it would be the OS/2 boot manager. WHEN it works. It's a PITA to configure. It's a PITA to deal with when you're changing kernels. And it's a PITA to work with when you screw up the lilo.conf. Sure, 99% of the time it doesn't matter, but when it DOES matter, it MATTERS. Debian - why? Even if it's the best thing since APL\\360, I *like* the idea of a large commercial interest that does Linux, with the right attitude, so I am happy to give my money to SuSE once or twice a year. It does what I need it to do better. I'm not quite sure why you don't understand that... Mozilla - still Netscape after all these years. Used Galeon? Or the other Mozilla-based browsers? Your ignorance is showing. Gimp - it's a fine graphics program. It's hyarge. It has a stupid name. WTF kind of stupid objection is that?? That's as bad as Stallman changing all the emacs Windows symbols from 'win32' to 'w32' because he didn't like the idea of Windows "winning". MP3 - I've never heard one, including the high bandwidth ones, that didn't sound like mud. Whatever lossy things ripping does, I can hear it. The ear is not as easily fooled as the eye. You're listening to bad MP3s then. I've got a golden ear (genetic, runs in the family -- perfect pitch as well), and my MP3s don't sound like mud. MP3s that other people rip, using inferior tools, sure. Not mine. You're blowing smoke. I'm just not cool. I'm n00b, I am not l337. You're just ignorant and too hung up on 1) appearance and 2) politics. ;-) I don't use stuff because it's "cool". I use it because it works. [edit: added the word 'sure' :-) ]
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Edited by admin
Dec. 13, 2002, 11:18:44 AM EST
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Post #68,645
12/13/02 11:39:48 AM
12/13/02 11:40:09 AM
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Hee hee
[Edit: added the word 'hee']
Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Edited by tseliot
Dec. 13, 2002, 11:40:09 AM EST
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Post #68,543
12/12/02 11:32:22 PM
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I have the perfect OS for you.
[link|http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp|http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp]
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #68,583
12/13/02 8:53:17 AM
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Hmmm....
BWAHAHAHA!
[link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!]
Your friendly Geheime Staatspolizei reminds: [link|http://www.wired.com/news/wireless/0,1382,56742,00.html|Wi-Fi enabled device use] comes with an all inclusive free trip to the (county)Photographer! Overbooking, is a problem, please be prepared for "room-ies".
Why You ask? Here is the answer to your query: SELECT * FROM politicians WHERE iq > 40 OR \\ WHERE ego < 1048575; 0 rows found
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Post #68,573
12/13/02 4:23:16 AM
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What do you want out of your computer?
Personally on my home machine I don't care much about how "right" most of my software is internally. I care more about how well it gets out of the way of what I want to do, without tying me into someone else's agenda.
I suspect that your goals are different. With corresponding differences in preferences.
Cheers, Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
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Post #68,601
12/13/02 10:02:15 AM
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Re: What do you want out of your computer?
I want it to work, and I want to understand how it works. I've been doing SuSE for 3 years and I know how it works. That's what I want. That's what I have. I want SuSE to win, I want to see SuSE desktops replace Windows desktops.
-drl
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Post #68,609
12/13/02 10:14:34 AM
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I've used SuSE for well over a year now.
As far as RPM distros go, it's great.
Windows vs. SuSE: sure, SuSE every time.
SuSE can't hold a candle to Debian with respect to system management, though.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #68,618
12/13/02 10:32:15 AM
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Re: I've used SuSE for well over a year now.
Debian makes no profits for anyone. And if it's all about policies, well, adapt them to a standard distro and everyone benefits.
No, I have a feeling that the coolness of Debian is related to the fact that it's politically correct.
-drl
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Post #68,624
12/13/02 10:41:30 AM
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Who cares about profits?
And if it's all about policies, well, adapt them to a standard distro and everyone benefits. Debian is a "standard distro". And the other distros aren't doing anything about policy... so Darwin wins. Regarding "coolness of Debian": 1) I DO NOT CARE ABOUT "COOLNESS" 2) It WORKS. I could care less out "political correctness". In fact, I fscking HATE the name "GNU/Linux". I do not want to use Debian because of a name, or a political stance.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #68,630
12/13/02 10:56:49 AM
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Re: Who cares about profits?
I realize that - you are sane, you are sharp, you are right.
But the "little man" in my head is saying, something about this is fishy and Not Good. I don't know why, but I know to trust it.
And profits make the world go round. Think Starbuck in Moby Dick, and his statement to Ahab regarding the "natural order of things".
-drl
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Post #68,631
12/13/02 11:01:32 AM
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Oh, hush.
You're just pissed off that we're all enjoying Debian and you're too chicken to make the switch.
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #68,669
12/13/02 12:51:13 PM
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Would Like To Hear What Rick has to say
..he being the most Linux-l337 here. I know he likes Debian. Perhaps he can explain the mania to me.
For what it's worth - I am not pissed off. My "little man" is telling me that this is pure PC, anticapitalist Stallmanism working its black deeds.
-drl
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Post #68,718
12/13/02 3:47:11 PM
12/13/02 5:21:57 PM
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Re: Would Like To Hear What Rick has to say
I'm honoured that you'd ask. I was, however, intending to sit out this one entirely: People will always have their preferences in distributions, because their criteria are so various, and it's largely a matter of individual taste. Further, people curious about a distribution need only install it and torture-test it for a few weeks, which will give you much more valuable information than will asking its proponents to sing its praises.
Further still, doesn't Karsten have a pretty articulate TWiki entry ("[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WhyDebianRocks|WhyDebianRocks]") on this subject?
Also, I largely agree with other people's reasons for liking many distributions. For example, you like SuSE because it's a very polished, smoothly running desktop distribution. I agree. Why would I want to convince you to use something else? Is there something in it for me? I recommend SuSE highly. [link|http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#distro|See for yourself.]
And: I dunno, don't distribution-advocacy wars seem pretty silly in 2002?
Let me approach the requested topic from a less-wearisome angle than "Prove to me that DebianRulez[tm]." Let's try Real Reasons to Not Like Debian:
1. There are no centralised administration tools. No YaST/YaST2, in other words. Instead, there are maybe a dozen smaller admin tools covering major tasks, generally ncurses-based rather than X11, such as ppp-config, sndconfig (Thank you, Red Hat Software), dpkg-reconfigure for lots of individual packages like XFree86, mdetect for mice, update-rc.d for SysVInit scripts, and so on.
2. You have to go out of your way to find a graphical installer, one that immediately installs a 2.4 kernel, or one that extensively autoprobes your hardware. If you take the path of least resistance, you end up with an ncurses installer that defaults to a 2.2 kernel, and (in the name of conservative operation and ability to succeed with difficult hardware) barely probes your hardware at all. You probably won't find the others unless you think to ask.
3. The bastards keep failing to document the cool stuff -- or it seems that way, anyway. I mentioned this elsewhere: You stumble across a really cool piece of system structure, and wonder why you never heard about this. Hmmpf. There are manpages, but.... Was /etc/alternatives/ or make-kpkg mentioned in the Debian Installation Manual or the Debian Linux User's Guide or the Debian System Administrator's Manual? You can't remember; maybe it wasn't then, and is now. Unnerving, anyway.
4. The emphasis on supporting 11 CPU architectures is a pain. Don't they know that Everyone Who Matters runs i686 and up? Who cares about supporting m68k? I want KDE 3.1RC3 now, for my P4! And what do you mean, "We'll release XFree86 4.2 when it's ready?" I want it now!
5. Some packages have early access only from unofficial apt-get repositories, as opposed to the main Debian package mirrors. Of course, it's not like they're [link|http://apt-get.org/|difficult to find].
6. The punctiliousness about observing other people's licence requirements is a pain, too. I (still a hypothetical "I", not a Rick Moen "I") don't care about whether University of Washington claims they'll sue anyone who distributes modified Pine packages: I get Pine/Pico by default on SuSE; why should I have to do "apt-get build-dep pine; apt-get source --compile pine; dpkg -i *.deb" just to get it on Debian? Who cares about the sanctity of Policy and not getting sued for copyright violation? I want my warez.
Am I piling it on a bit too thick? Sorry about that. The point is that this is a matter of perspective, and that if you either violently disagree with the Debian way of doing things or don't understand the rationale, it can seem annoyingly arbitrary and opaque.
Let's try Bogus Reasons to Not Like Debian:
1. "I don't like the name GNU/Linux". Well, don't use it, then. Take out your $EDITOR_OF_CHOICE and hack it out of /etc/issue. There, it's gone. Similar measures apply elsewhere.
2. "I don't like the politics." Well, don't partake of that. The notion that a free-software-uber-alles political stance is inherent in Debian will come as a huge shock to Xandros, Corel, Libra Computer Systems, Ltd., and Storm Technologies, all of whom chose to build largely proprietary Linux distributions on Debian specifically because Debian's extreme care about observing other people's licence terms means they could reliably build a superset on the Debian core without legal worries.
Debian subjects the licensing of all software (and other content, such as typefaces) to paranoid scrutiny, to determine if it can be included, and in what category. Some software cannot be packaged at all, not even using a patch-and-build-from-source trick such as described for pine (also used for qmail, ezmlm, djbdns, et al.), on account of too-severe licence restrictions. Otherwise, it gets put in one of four bins: "main" is software that's licensed with terms that meet the free/open-source acid test, the [link|http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines|DFSG], which is functionally identical to the [link|http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition_plain.html|Open Source Definition] (which is the DFSG with Debian-specific references removed), and that has dependencies only on other such packages. "non-free" is software that doesn't (i.e., is proprietary), but that can still be lawfully distributed in some form that can be made [link|http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/|Policy]-compliant -- in extreme cases, by patch-and-build. "non-US" is software that for crypto, patent, or other reasons might not be legally exportable from the USA. "contrib" (a terrible name, but just try to think up a less misleading one) is software that is itself DFSG-compliant, but is dependent on at least one other package that isn't.
The point is that, rhetoric from loudmouths notwithstanding, if a proprietary package can be lawfully packaged for Debian at all, and someone has bothered to do so, then it's neither more or less difficult to install and use on Debian than is a DFSG-free one.
3. "I don't like the attitude." Smeg off, technopeasant.^W^W^W Er..., I mean, {shrug}. Only joking -- or maybe not. But the attitude is a strictly optional feature.
P.S.: On the separate but overlapping "GRUB is better than LILO" argument, I have only [link|http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/zen-of-lilo|this] to say (also included in the current issue of Linux Gazette, in the Answer Gang column).
Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Edited by rickmoen
Dec. 13, 2002, 03:57:37 PM EST
Edited by rickmoen
Dec. 13, 2002, 05:21:57 PM EST
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Post #68,724
12/13/02 3:57:59 PM
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GRUB/LILO
From the link: GRUB is a capable and flexible bootloader, but practically all of the reasons commonly cited for it being preferable to LILO boil down to "I once messed with my boot files before reading LILO documentation, shot myself in the foot, and therefore blame LILO." Alternatively, I once messed with my boot files before/after reading LILO documentation, shot myself in the foot, and therefore now use a boot manager that allows me to shoot myself in the foot and gracefully recover without rebooting/editing/trying it all again... ;-)
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #68,764
12/13/02 5:04:39 PM
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Re: GRUB/LILO
Scott wrote:
Alternatively, I once messed with my boot files before/after reading LILO documentation, shot myself in the foot, and therefore now use a boot manager that allows me to shoot myself in the foot and gracefully recover without rebooting/editing/trying it all again... ;-)
I like that.
The main problem with lilo isn't with lilo intrinsically, but rather with the usual default configuration: If (like most people) you have a lilo.conf that lacks a fallback stanza for a known-good kernel, it's an accident waiting to happen, the first time you experiment with new kernels or with changed boot configurations.
In the worst-case scenario, it's your only computer, one that you dual-boot. You're new to Linux, you've finally mustered up the courage to compile a new kernel, everything seemed to go well, you tried to reboot, and... "LI", followed by a system halt. You're temporarily frozen out of both Linux and your legacy-proprietary OS, until you figure out how to use either a maintenance floppy or a maintenance CD to fix lilo. Which might be easy, except you now have no manpages and no access to /usr/share/doc/*, because your one and only system can't boot.
Whereas, if you're an experienced user, you have a fallback stanza in lilo, and already know how to do "/sbin/lilo -r /mnt" from a floppy well enough to do it in your sleep. Which means messed-up lilo is a trivial problem if you're experienced, but a traumatic catastrophe if you aren't.
Anyhow: The advantage you cite for GRUB amounts to "it can read the filesystem". The attached disadvantage is "it must be able to read the filesystem": (1) If /boot is even slightly corrupted, you may not be able to boot. This wouldn't faze lilo, because at boot-time it operates solely from memorised physical locations of objects, and doesn't read the filesystem at all. (2) Wish to have /boot on a new and fancy filesystem type that GRUB doesn't yet know how to read? Sorry, you can't. Even use of ReiserFS necessitates the "notail" mount option. Omit that on /boot, and you're likely to have serious problems. (3) Because GRUB not only can read the filesystem but also must do so, you can't leave /boot normally unmounted. All of my systems do the latter, as a (admittedly minor) precaution against root-user mishap. (The /etc/fstab entry has a "noauto" option.) I mount /boot only when updating boot files, then umount it again.
So: I have no problem with people preferring GRUB, but they almost invariably are gravitating that way almost entirely because they never used lilo competently.
Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #68,766
12/13/02 5:10:42 PM
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Whether you have a fallback stanza or not
It's a timewaster to have to boot the OS just to change the mistake.
Current situation: I'm trying to get a particular kernel to work, and doing a LOT of compiling/configuring/rebooting. Several times I've forgotten to add a particular parm I wanted to try or the like. Even with a fallback stanza in lilo, I'd be wasting considerable amounts of time rebooting everytime to fix a mistake. With GRUB, I just edit the menu entry right then and there and boot from it.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #68,767
12/13/02 5:16:46 PM
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Ahh, the philosophical difference
Lilo method seems to favor always being recoverable (assuming you've got the fallback stanza -- is that typical in a Debian install BTW?) at the expense of requiring a little more care from the user. Grub favors more user-friendlyness while doing the install.
And when people criticize the Debian install, isn't one of the constant refrains that that is something you almost never have to do? Rick seems to favor the method that will always work, and will accept the minor inconvenience of waiting longer for it to reboot when tweaking kernels, because you don't really do that too often anyway.
=== Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #68,775
12/13/02 5:44:06 PM
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Re: Ahh, the philosophical difference
drew wrote:
Lilo method seems to favor always being recoverable (assuming you've got the fallback stanza -- is that typical in a Debian install BTW?
Last I checked, no.
I've been meaning to file a bug in the Debian Bug Tracking System about that, but have been a lazy git. Besides, as you say, it's something one fixes once, almost absent-mindedly, and then never has to worry about again.
Re: the rest of your post - nicely stated.
Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #68,800
12/13/02 9:36:38 PM
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Fallback stanza: yes
...at least through one cycle of kernel updates. vmlinuz and vmlinuz-old are both present. Meaning if you've updated to a new kernel, your old kernel should be available. Note that the vmlinuz & vmlinuz-old symlinks are automatically updated, so with two installs, you're now potentially SOL. In which case, you would want to add a "failsafe" stanza pointing to a known-good kernel and config, preferably booting single-user mode. \r\n\r\n That said, I prefer GRUB for its configurability and realtime recovery features. \r\n
--\r\n Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #68,801
12/13/02 9:38:10 PM
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Fallback stanza: yes
...at least through one cycle of kernel updates. vmlinuz and vmlinuz-old are both present. Meaning if you've updated to a new kernel, your old kernel should be available. Note that the vmlinuz & vmlinuz-old symlinks are automatically updated, so with two installs, you're now potentially SOL. In which case, you would want to add a "failsafe" stanza pointing to a known-good kernel and config, preferably booting single-user mode. \r\n\r\n That said, I prefer GRUB for its configurability and realtime recovery features. \r\n
--\r\n Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #68,770
12/13/02 5:33:16 PM
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Re: Whether you have a fallback stanza or not
Yes, having to reboot a lot of times to test not-quite-working kernels would suck. I've never faced the situation you described. I've had cases where some aspect of my newly compiled kernel was wrong such that it required many recompile cycles to get right, but the kernel was working well enough to support the recompile process. And I've made bonehead errors that rendered the kernel completely unusable (the classics: omit console support; omit support for your HD host adapter), but that took only one fallback reboot, recompile, and reboot to correct.
If I had a non-usable kernel that I was trying to fix through iterative boot-attempt cycles, I'd probably install GRUB for the duration, for the reasons you cited. Or VMware.
But then I'd switch back to lilo when I was done. Not a huge thing, just a Works for Me[tm] one.
Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #68,773
12/13/02 5:40:49 PM
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VMWare
I wish. I've already got Debian running there. :-P
Seems the trick is getting this kernel to load on the real box, not the virtual one.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #69,170
12/16/02 4:13:18 PM
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Isn't this a clue?
If you can install and run the Debian OS on VMWare and have success, but it fails on the real hardware, then isn't this a clue?
How does your hardware differ from what VMWare assumes? Could you have a jumper issue with your HD, or some obscure BIOS setting that Debian isn't liking?
Hope this sparks something useful. Good luck!
Cheers, Scott.
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Post #69,175
12/16/02 4:26:58 PM
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Re: Isn't this a clue?
As just noted elsewhere, solved.
The initrd was hosed. I need to track down why (Greg intimated that it's a problem with 2.4.19).
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #68,808
12/13/02 9:54:33 PM
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Re: GRUB/LILO
Pretty much exactly. Once I deleted everything in /etc because I was tired and I made a mistake - I'm getting better, the one and only previous mistake of this sort was of /, and I had backups then, on 8 inch floppies - I was pissed as hell but it was hardly a bump in the road. I did once reboot before LILO, but I had a boot floppy (even on Microchannel) and kernel parameters. Did I blame LILO? Of course not. I always loved LILO because it had the good manners to leave a copy of the boot sector it replaced.
-drl
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Post #68,810
12/13/02 10:02:17 PM
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Re: GRUB/LILO
PS: I'm certain that the behavior of cd without argument (take me home) is a direct result of being root. In other words, I won't make that mistake again, cd, I know that's an attic, with a lot of downloads and .dot files.
Speaking of which:
All these stupid .dot files for every last application are really annoying. .xinitrc must be saying "There goes the neighborhood."
-drl
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Post #68,826
12/13/02 11:12:33 PM
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RFC: ~/.etc
\r\nSpeaking of which: \r\n\r\nAll these stupid .dot files for every last application are really annoying. .xinitrc must be saying "There goes the neighborhood." \r\n \r\n\r\n No kidding. IMO it's long past time to replicate / in $HOME. I tend to do this already with ~/bin and ~/tmp, and sometimes ~/etc, ~/lib, and ~/var. Dotfile propogation started bugging me years ago, and it's not getting any better. Worse is that there are now dotfile aggregators (.gnome, .Gabber, .gconf, .gconfd, .gnome_private, GNUstep, ...). \r\n
--\r\n Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #68,726
12/13/02 3:59:35 PM
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Ha!
Edited it before I could respond to the Invocation By Name! Tricky bastidge... ;-)
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #68,736
12/13/02 4:10:05 PM
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diffs on edit history (new thread)
Created as new thread #68735 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=68735|diffs on edit history]
=== Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #68,756
12/13/02 4:32:23 PM
12/14/02 4:49:16 PM
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Ha!
Yeah, sorry about that. (So I can't keep attributions straight. ;-> )
In case people are wondering, in my long post about Debian, above, in response to Ross's request, I attributed a love of SuSE to Scott, having misread the preceding exchanges. After saving the post, I realised my error, and went back and fixed it.
Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Edited by rickmoen
Dec. 14, 2002, 04:49:16 PM EST
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Post #68,762
12/13/02 4:49:11 PM
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You weren't that far off...
I do like SuSE's polish, and of the RPM distros I've tried it has the best package management.
But as soon as I get this damned Debian kernel to boot, I'm dumping it. :-)
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #68,827
12/13/02 11:15:00 PM
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How does Debian..
..deal with library updates?
-drl
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Post #68,843
12/14/02 12:27:23 AM
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Debian library updates
[link|http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/|Debian Policy], section 9, [link|http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-sharedlibs.html|Shared Libraries]. \r\n\r\n Minor versions are updated in place via the 'link()' system call, which is atomic (rm + cp are not, which is why this creates a problem, and which is why any distro does library updates via symlinks). \r\n\r\n Major versions generally result in a new package, with the library major version noted. \r\n\r\n There's a collection of obsoleted libraries in "oldlibs", which allow, eg, libc5 programs to function properly. \r\n\r\n As with all other aspects of a Debian system upgrade, with the exception of the kernel and kernel modules, these updates may be made on a functioning system, in multi-user mode, without requiring a reboot or shutdown to single-user mode. \r\n\r\n What specific issues did you have in mind? \r\n
--\r\n Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #68,637
12/13/02 11:17:44 AM
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Profits...
This is pure capitalism at work.
If Debian has a better product, AND it's free, then SuSE et al. *deserve* to fail.
If SuSE can provide a better product, better enough to charge for it, then fine.
1) Charge for free stuff that doesn't work as well 2) ...? 3) Profit!
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #68,629
12/13/02 10:56:19 AM
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Bah!
You know jack about Debian yet you still feel qualified to spout about it.
I keep telling you, your OS is here:
[link|http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp|http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp]
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #68,644
12/13/02 11:37:11 AM
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I thought it was over...
[link|http://cpm.interfun.net/cpm86.html|Here].
D&RVF!
Cheers, Scott.
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Post #68,666
12/13/02 12:43:04 PM
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Re: I thought it was over...
:)
D&RVF? <- explain.
-drl
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Post #68,673
12/13/02 1:00:03 PM
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I'd be willing to bet it's...
"Duck and Run Very Fast"
Variant of [link|http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=gd%26r&Find=Find|GD&R].
-YendorMike
[link|http://www.hope-ride.org/|http://www.hope-ride.org/]
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Post #68,677
12/13/02 1:03:56 PM
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Re: I'd be willing to bet it's...
Nice link - tried to "Gator" me.
-drl
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Post #68,678
12/13/02 1:05:12 PM
|
?
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #68,682
12/13/02 1:18:13 PM
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Spyware
-drl
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Post #68,686
12/13/02 1:21:51 PM
12/13/02 1:25:24 PM
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News to me.
If that's the case, that it has spyware, then I'm sorry.
It just showed up in the 6th link on [link|http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=CPM%2F86&btnG=Google+Search|this] Google page.
[edit: Whoops. I think I missed the antecedant.
Yes, D&RVF is "Duck and Run Very Fast." I first saw it used by a certain Dr. Martin H. who hung out on an POSSI's OS/2 mailing list.]
Cheers, Scott.
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Post #68,687
12/13/02 1:24:07 PM
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Errrr...
Don't use shit browsers or OSes then. I never noticed a thing.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #68,691
12/13/02 2:05:05 PM
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Re: Errrr...
Work proposes, and I disposes.
Anyway my real machine is running Linux.
-drl
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Post #68,815
12/13/02 10:21:30 PM
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You Gatored you
Gator is client-side spy/morph ware. It lives on your local host and targets specific URLs for putting its own ads on. The problem is you, Ross ;-) \r\n
--\r\n Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #68,818
12/13/02 10:34:14 PM
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Re: You Gatored you
I really don't think so. IE6 is a very nice browser - it doesn't even trust Microsoft by default. I'm very confident that my systems are not dupes.
In this case, we had exactly the same behavior when the Windows Update Client 4 wanted to install itself, as when the Gator Spyware wanted to do the same. I was impressed by that. Somewhere in the innards of Microsoft are some good, damn good programmers.
-drl
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Post #68,832
12/13/02 11:47:49 PM
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Re: You Gatored you
I really don't think so. \r\n\r\n [link|http://www.cexx.org/gator.htm|Think so]. \r\n\r\n Or [link|http://www.google.com/search?q=gator+spyware|check for yourself]. \r\n
--\r\n Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #68,816
12/13/02 10:24:36 PM
12/13/02 10:35:57 PM
|
This post intentionally...
...left. (Dupe post). \r\n
--\r\n Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
Edited by kmself
Dec. 13, 2002, 10:35:57 PM EST
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Post #68,696
12/13/02 2:38:18 PM
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been a while
I messed around with CP/M on my 128. A friend had a TRS-80 and we could exchange programs on floppy w/out any problems. Those [link|http://www.devili.iki.fi/Computers/Commodore/articles/A_Look_Around_the_1571/|1571 disk drives] were slick, could handle numerous MFM disk formats besides Commodore's GCR.
Darrell Spice, Jr.
[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #68,794
12/13/02 8:11:26 PM
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You *CAN'T* adapt policies to a standard distro
A large part of what it means to have a policy is to not have to deal with the marketing droid who got the CEO to say, Just once.
A standard for-profit distro cannot guarantee that because the CEO recognizes that the marketing droid is often right..short term. Debian both can and does. (And keeps a signficant fraction of users irritated at any given time about some resulting issue - see Rick Moen's post for examples.)
Cheers, Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
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Post #68,822
12/13/02 11:01:58 PM
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Re: You *CAN'T* adapt policies to a standard distro
Commercial Linux distributions are too young to have been ruined by marketing droids. I don't understand all this drama. A policy is a policy.
What's next? A XML based distribution? OH SHIT! It's already here.
-drl
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Post #68,825
12/13/02 11:09:26 PM
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Um, Ross...?
Red Hat was founded by a marketing droid.
If you are trying to make money, and you are still alive, then you have marketers and they have a say in how your product works. That is life.
Cheers, Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
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Post #68,834
12/13/02 11:55:34 PM
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Re: Um, Ross...?
There is nothing wrong with marketing as long as it is done with Starbuckian restraint.
-drl
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Post #68,847
12/14/02 12:35:24 AM
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So marketing is OK if it is effective?
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
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Post #68,870
12/14/02 10:45:11 AM
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Re: So marketing is OK if it is effective?
No, marketing is OK if it is not coercive and if it is done to trumpet a fine product that many people have worked very hard to make - in other words, when it is not an end in itself.
-drl
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Post #68,885
12/14/02 12:42:50 PM
|
Um...marketing is _part_ of the production process
I suspect that you believe that marketing is something that starts after the product is done and is ready to ship. It ain't that simple.
In any healthy company one of the primary roles of marketing is to get feedback about what existing and potential customers want, and then to take that back to the company and get that done. Any company whose marketing department cannot carry out this role either is a monopoly or is not long for the world.
Having marketing serve that role is not coercive. It is something other than trumpeting a fine product that many people have worked very hard to make. It is also a role that by its nature has little regard for the internals of how the products work and what the consequences are of satisfying every customer whim. This is true not just even of, but especially of well-done marketing. That is the role that I was talking about above.
That role immediately puts marketing into direct conflict with any kind of internal policy on things like release guidelines, testing, scheduling, and so on. It is not that marketing actively wishes to compromise these things, it is that they represent interests whose desires and needs do not take them into account. And in any healthy company both points of view have to be balanced, sometimes with one winning and sometimes with the other. The compromises may be small - particularly if the desired marketing message is closely aligned with technical implementation - but they are always present. Whether it is shipping a broken compiler, or going with a popular packaging format because it is what everyone else uses.
In Debian the marketing point of view is only present to the extent that core developers are themselves customers and so feel the customers' pain. The result - for good and bad - is that policy can be taken to lengths that would never be possible in a company that has to worry about the fact that customers are getting ticked off and going elsewhere. Use it for a while and you will see this in spades. Or go out and listen to complaints from users - almost inevitably they are a result of the effort that it takes to follow policy.
About this topic I won't speak more until and unless you actually try Debian and have the opportunity to see for yourself the advantages and disadvantages that come from not compromising on well thought-out policy for expediency. After you have that experience, then we can talk about whether any for-profit company that tried to hold such a rigid line could possibly survive long enough to see the benefits. (My opinion is that it could not - just as Debian could not if it had to pay for the time that it takes to implement it.)
But I will say one thing about another topic. Starbucks has extremely effective marketing. This is both good and bad. Some random links for you:
[link|http://www.thestranger.com/2001-10-11/city4.html|http://www.thestrang...-10-11/city4.html] [link|http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/02-3-00/Opinions/6.html|http://www.jhu.edu/~...0/Opinions/6.html] [link|http://www.monochrom.at/cracked/comments/Starbucks.htm|http://www.monochrom...nts/Starbucks.htm] [link|http://www.sallys-place.com/beverages/coffee/big_s.htm|http://www.sallys-pl.../coffee/big_s.htm]
My summary? They have figured out how to overcharge for an OK product. And they overcharge as much as they can, as often as they can. Their marketing is aggressive, but generally well enough done that it doesn't overtly look like marketing. So people don't mind...
Cheers, Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
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Post #68,898
12/14/02 2:37:45 PM
|
Re: Um...marketing is _part_ of the production process
Heh - "Starbuckian" meant Starbuck in Moby Dick! He is the moral foil to Ahab's monomania and obession with revenge. His moral compass is "everything in moderation". So I meant about marketing - when it is for the purpose of promoting a good product that employs good people who do good work, then it's acceptable and even A Good Thing. When it is done to lock down markets and proselytize a self-obsessed viewpoint (think Microsoft) then it is not acceptable and An Evil Thing.
-drl
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Post #68,900
12/14/02 2:43:29 PM
|
Sorry to interject, but there's something important here.
I'll abstain from the content of the dispute here, but I just wanted to make note of something important going on here that has not happened in the personal computer market for quite some time. The dispute here is largely about "which distro is best?" The fact that such a discussion could occur at all in the face of a monopoly is encouraging.
Carry on, Mikem
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Post #68,908
12/14/02 7:03:20 PM
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Re: Sorry to interject, but there's something important...
Well, its vital to package it correctly, as a competitor to Windows on all fronts. It's also a competitor to UNIX. That is damn good credibility. This point was passed I'd say about 6 months after IBM painted penguins all over New York.
-drl
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Post #68,901
12/14/02 3:10:35 PM
|
Call that a "missed reference" then. :-)
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
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Post #68,786
12/13/02 7:18:53 PM
|
There can only be one?
For servers, I prefer Debian. It's clean. I only have exactly what I want on it. It's easy to upgrade.
For workstations, I prefer whatever I like at that moment.
It was Red Hat.
But then Mandrake came out with all the cool stuff that Red Hat didn't have.
And SuSE had the cool new kernel with the cool new desktop and just about everything you could imagine.
But then Knoppix comes along and not only has everything, already has if configured for me.
But I view desktop systems as completely different from servers. Servers keep my data safe. Workstations can be wiped and reloaded whenever something else looks attractive.
Just save all your data to the server before wiping your desktop.
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Post #68,817
12/13/02 10:29:00 PM
|
*A* Frickin *MEN*
[link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!]
Your friendly Geheime Staatspolizei reminds: [link|http://www.wired.com/news/wireless/0,1382,56742,00.html|Wi-Fi enabled device use] comes with an all inclusive free trip to the (county)Photographer! Overbooking, is a problem, please be prepared for "room-ies".
Why You ask? Here is the answer to your query: SELECT * FROM politicians WHERE iq > 40 OR \\ WHERE ego < 1048575; 0 rows found
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Post #68,821
12/13/02 10:53:46 PM
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Re: There can only be one?
Did I say that? No - my clear point is that SuSE deserves my - MY - money. Spend yours, or don't, as you like. I am happy to give my money to SuSE. That is a class organization. I want them to make progress and profits.
-drl
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Post #68,859
12/14/02 4:59:25 AM
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Re: There can only be one?
deSitter wrote:
I am happy to give my money to SuSE. That is a class organization. I want them to make progress and profits.
Just in support of your point, all signs suggest that SuSE have provided practically all of the engineering talent for the United Linux distribution. Not only does the roster of names suggest that, but the beta I installed looked and acted a whole lot like SuSE 8.1 with the serial number filed off.
Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #68,873
12/14/02 10:50:36 AM
|
Re: There can only be one?
All you need do is read the kernel threads in reference to TIOCGDEV, an ioctl that SuSE uses to find the real console at boot-time, to see that those people have their heads on straight - see here for example:
[link|http://www.uwsg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0210.0/1670.html|http://www.uwsg.iu.e.../0210.0/1670.html]
The reply is rational, correct, and purely UNIX in spirit.
-drl
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Post #68,906
12/14/02 4:37:31 PM
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Re: There can only be one?
Interesting stuff. Thanks for pointing that out.
I notice that that LKML thread occurred during the latest iteration of the Bitkeeper licence flamewar. I pondered a suitably constructive response to the latter, and decided upon this: [link|http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/scm.html|http:/linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/scm.html]
Possibly of interest to some, here.
Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #68,967
12/15/02 10:23:34 AM
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Re: GRUB, the only way to fly
OS/2 Boot manager *was* great once.
Lilo - as mentioned PITA
GRUB works, can be reconfigured, can be reestablished when in RH8, can allow you to edit names of the other Windows/Linux boots (Such as Win2000, WinMe, Mandrake, Debian (Knoppix)) I have those sukkers on my machine.
To get rid of GRUB I only need run fdisk /mbr on C: disk using a boot floppy of WinMe or Win98
To reinstall GRUB I can boot my RH8 (from floppy) & tell it to put grub back - have done it several times whilst kicking shit out of my main Internet computer this past week.
GRUB is easy, simple configurable & works reliably.
Cheers
Doug
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