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Post #67,446
by tuberculosis
Picture of tuberculosis
12/9/02 5:08:06 AM
12/9/02 5:24:46 AM
Reply
New Yep, seen all those.
FWIW, I've been having an email exchange with Gilad Bracha - one of the sponsors of this thing who, as it turns out, is one of the creators of Strongtalk (bought by Sun and killed).

His explanation is that, yes this is lame, but you can't lead them out of the darkness all at once - you have to do it incrementally and this is one more step on the path.

His response:
"The JSR has been very well received - Java people love it. Only Smalltalkers complain."

But I wasn't complaining about his JSR - rather that its a bit of a bandaid on a sucking chest wound. And of course Java people love it - Java people love Java.
I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Dec. 9, 2002, 05:24:46 AM EST
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Post #67,464
by bluke
12/9/02 9:47:58 AM
Reply
New Unfortunately people like Gosling ...
are not headed in the same direction. Here is a quote from Gosling
[link|http://java.sun.com/features/2002/03/gosling.html|ABOUT JAVA TECHNOLOGY An Interview with James Gosling ]

"JAVA DEVELOPER CONNECTION PROGRAM (JDC): If you could start again, would you make everything an object rather than the current int, boolean, byte, etc, viz-a-viz object disconnect?

JAMES GOSLING: No, actually I tend to go the other way, which is to say, a way to make classes behave more like primitives, so that they can be optimized and become extremely efficient, and maybe have a way to do autoboxing so that they sort of go back and forth between being objects. There are a lot of subtle problems around autoboxing that always make me nervous, and the big one being questions around identity. "

I agree with you that Java as it stands today is unsalvageable, they just keep adding more and more stuff on top of a very lousy foundation.
Post #67,529
by tseliot
Picture of tseliot
12/9/02 11:35:23 AM
Reply
New Heh. There's a reason for that.
And of course Java people love it - Java people love Java.


Java people love Java because it's the only alternative to .ASP they can get past the managers. So let me them love it.
Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
     Java - a baby step towards Smalltalk -a giant leap towards C - (tuberculosis) - (25) - Dec. 5, 2002, 05:43:17 AM EST
         Re: Java - a baby step towards Smalltalk -a giant leap - (deSitter) - (3) - Dec. 5, 2002, 09:55:51 AM EST
             Read the link - (tseliot) - Dec. 5, 2002, 11:12:52 AM EST
             Java gravitating towards C#? - (ChrisR) - (1) - Dec. 5, 2002, 11:13:35 AM EST
                 Re: Java gravitating towards C#? - (deSitter) - Dec. 5, 2002, 11:31:51 AM EST
         They won't admit they were wrong - (bluke) - (19) - Dec. 5, 2002, 11:00:34 AM EST
             I had a "discussion" with a C++ programmer - (admin) - (11) - Dec. 5, 2002, 11:02:36 AM EST
                 Re: I had a "discussion" with a C++ programmer - (tuberculosis) - (10) - Dec. 5, 2002, 01:42:49 PM EST
                     Re: I had a "discussion" with a C++ programmer - (neelk) - (9) - Dec. 9, 2002, 09:40:00 AM EST
                         Roll your own... - (ChrisR) - (8) - Dec. 9, 2002, 05:34:17 PM EST
                             Interesting summary - (ben_tilly) - Dec. 9, 2002, 06:55:04 PM EST
                             Needle... - (neelk) - (6) - Dec. 10, 2002, 08:34:03 AM EST
                                 What is the underlying motivation? - (tuberculosis) - (5) - Dec. 10, 2002, 01:22:39 PM EST
                                     Re: What is the underlying motivation? - (neelk) - (4) - Dec. 10, 2002, 04:46:58 PM EST
                                         Suggestion... - (ben_tilly) - Dec. 10, 2002, 08:47:27 PM EST
                                         Have fun - (tuberculosis) - (2) - Dec. 11, 2002, 03:18:27 AM EST
                                             Re: Have fun - (neelk) - (1) - Dec. 11, 2002, 09:41:19 AM EST
                                                 Sounds cool - compare it to Strongtalk? - (tuberculosis) - Dec. 11, 2002, 09:55:29 AM EST
             I'd like to see it. - (tuberculosis) - (4) - Dec. 5, 2002, 01:32:53 PM EST
                 Some shortcomings of primitives - (bluke) - (3) - Dec. 8, 2002, 07:39:19 AM EST
                     Yep, seen all those. - (tuberculosis) - (2) - Dec. 9, 2002, 05:24:46 AM EST
                         Unfortunately people like Gosling ... - (bluke) - Dec. 9, 2002, 09:47:58 AM EST
                         Heh. There's a reason for that. - (tseliot) - Dec. 9, 2002, 11:35:23 AM EST
             Java 1 wasn't *that* bad - (wharris2) - (1) - Dec. 10, 2002, 05:44:29 PM EST
                 Wasn't bad??? - (bluke) - Dec. 11, 2002, 03:39:26 AM EST
         The Java-Language-Design Research Algorithm, Unleashed - (bluke) - Dec. 7, 2002, 03:38:04 PM EST

None more embeddeder, I'd say.
108 ms