Which is better for WS, WinXP Pro or Win2000 WS?

Post #65,902 by tonytib 12/1/02 5:26:56 PM Reply	Which is better for WS, WinXP Pro or Win2000 WS? I'm thinking about upgrading my Windows box (unfortunately a lot of programs I need, such as Code Composer and Pro/Desktop, are Windows only). So the intended use would be as a workstation (not gaming), with an 1.2G Athlon or maybe up to Athlon 2200, with >= 512MB RAM. The choices appear to be: Win2000 WS (my default choice) or WinXP Pro (about the same price, so I'm wondering if it has any real advantages over W2K). Another possibility, of course, is to run Linux as the main OS and then use Win4Lin, etc -- but IIRC these always need a real MS OS. Tony
Post #65,904 by pwhysall 12/1/02 5:33:34 PM Reply	Re: Which is better for WS, WinXP Pro or Win2000 WS? I'd plump for WXP, for the simple reason that W2K is perilously close to EOL. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #65,958 by folkert 12/1/02 11:54:52 PM Reply	I just HATE to say it... But, go with WXP. Actually does indeed have alot going for it. Expanded DOS/Win9X compatibility (W2K lack in that area badly, but better than WINNT4), Actually has better Stack Performance. I have seen better Memory Management (Finally), plus ability to make it DO what you want it to do more easily than any previous Windows version yet. I guess... I have given up the fight... along with the DOJ. I get the best of both worlds now, with WXP as my Workstation OS, Linux and BSD as my Server OSes. Using [link\|http://www.cygwin.com\|Cygwin, UNIX for Windows] and [link\|http://xfree86.cygwin.com\|Cygwin/XFree86 for Windows] as an XDMCP querying(sp?) Graphical Login for all my UNIX, Linux and BSD environs I have. Thereby giving me the ability to USE Windows as a "X-Terminal"/Gaming console/"MP3/OGG" Player... ;) No Dual booting lately for me... as I have a headless Linux machine sitting next to me running Linux right now... with TONS of disk space on it, a CD Burner AND soon to have s DVD Burner too... ;) OH... YEAH... and Barry... the Question about "Are you saying Thane should setup everyone with Cygwin so they can remotely execute stuff from a centralized server?"... my stock answer now would be "YES". At the bottom of [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=50211\|This one] neener... neener... `[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!] Your friendly Geheime Staatspolizei reminds: Use your computer, we'll sample your DNA and imprint your eyes. SELECT * FROM politicians WHERE iq > 40 OR WHERE ego < 1048575; 0 rows found`
Post #65,968 by tonytib 12/2/02 12:50:44 AM Reply	Better Mem Mgt is big Because I know NT's mem mgt sucks more than a vacuum pump (and causes me to reboot every couple days at work), and W2K's definitely has its quirks. I wouldn't consider using anything from MS as a server. Like you, I like multiple boxes instead of dual boot. I don't particularly care for MS OS a client, but I do like (and do need) a lot of software that's only available on it; that's even true for my brother, who is a big Linux fan (for example, he's using Eagle for PC board design since it's an affordable, decent Linux program). Better DOS emulation could be a plus, too. Tony
Post #66,056 by deSitter 12/2/02 10:55:30 AM Reply	W2K Vastly Improved W2K really is NT 5 if you forget the stupid AD baggage. The things that were horribly broken in NT 5 are mostly fixed. -drl
Post #66,053 by deSitter 12/2/02 10:54:01 AM Reply	Nutz! That's crazy Greg: 1) Mystery networking. No one knows what XP says to basecamp Redmond. 2) Activation. Must call home. 3) Auto-conversion to NTFS-NG. A real nuisance. 4) Ultra-bloat. 5) Horrible DOS compatibility. See a doctor, I'm worried about you. -drl
Post #66,257 by folkert 12/2/02 8:55:15 PM Reply	You ferget... I am the person responsible for my entire network being connected to the internet... WITHOUT ATTBI's support for anything except Winder's and MAC sumthing. I only let traffic I want. That said... Once get your WXPP install working the way YOU want. Everything disabled you want disabled. BTW, I still use FAT-32 on my 40GB Plus Drives for WXPP. I also use a Win98 Boot disk and the entire I386 directory from the CD xcopy'd (/s/e) to C:\\Windows\\Options\\ (No deeper else you run into the "DOS" Limit on directory depth) then run "C:\\Windows\\Options\\I386\\WINNT.EXE" and it'll take you from there... Screw NTFS conversion from FAT-32. Especially for Desktops. As for Activation, I have Zero Problem doing an "Phone Call" Activation vs. a "Internet" Activation. Ultra-Bloat... I really don't see it except for Disk space. I have been using [link\|http://www.xteq.com/\|Xteq Systems] [link\|http://www.xteq.com/products/xset/index.html\|Xteq X-Setup] and can get WinXPP doing what I want. Now as far as memory... Mozilla by far is the Bloatiest. [link\|http://home.attbi.com/~curley95/files/WXP-tskmgr.png\|See Here] now... as you can see the lovely memory HOG Mozilla is. But tis the only thing I am running at this point. The response of the machine from W2KP to WXPP, with zero HW changes, did infact improve markedly. Horrible DOS compatibility, nope I don't see it. I infact have been able to get DOS only 1990 era programs to run in WXPP with literally zero problem. W2KP couldn't and still won't run this app, which still runs a company I do work for. The Developer was killed in a freak electrical accident... and therefore all support and source was lost before the customer knew it. The family sold off the machines, they had to pay for things. Didn't know what he really did. And as for seeing a Doctor... BWAHAHAHAHA, taint no Doctor that can Help me! `[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!] Your friendly Geheime Staatspolizei reminds: Use your computer, we'll sample your DNA and imprint your eyes. SELECT * FROM politicians WHERE iq > 40 OR WHERE ego < 1048575; 0 rows found`
Post #66,300 by pwhysall 12/2/02 11:42:14 PM Reply	FAT32? Are you nucking FUTS? Get them partitions converted, you headcase. NTFS, for all its sins, is head and shoulders above FAT32. FAT32 is fragile, slow and wasteful - and also doesn't support any of the Good Things that NTFS does like security, compression, metadata journalling etc. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #66,305 by deSitter 12/2/02 11:59:02 PM Reply	Re: FAT32? We don't need FS lectures, sonny. NTFS also changes at a whim, can't be resized, and still after all these years has only beta support r/w. HPFS has all the things you mentioned and is open. Yes, on a Windows-only server NTFS is "better". On a workstation - why bother? -drl
Post #66,306 by pwhysall 12/3/02 12:00:37 AM Reply	Can't be resized? Yes it can. If you're running FAT32 in preference to NTFS, then yes, you do need FS lectures, sonny. Why bother? Faster and more robust, that's why. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #66,308 by deSitter 12/3/02 12:09:31 AM Reply	Re: Can't be resized? - no Not unless you have an NDA with MS. It's not open. It's the openness, stupid. -drl
Post #66,309 by pwhysall 12/3/02 12:10:37 AM Reply	Sure it can. PartitionMagic 7 resizes NTFS partitions. You can resize partitions yourself if you're using dynamic disks. But so what? If you wanted open, you wouldn't be running FUCKING WINDOWS, would you? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #66,315 by deSitter 12/3/02 12:29:34 AM Reply	PQ has NDA with Borg I want open. I run Windows and Linux. We all live together in a sonorous harmony. -drl
Post #66,317 by pwhysall 12/3/02 12:39:30 AM Reply	Re: PQ has NDA with Borg I want open. I run Windows and Linux. We all live together in a sonorous harmony. That's a bit like saying "I want to sit in the tiger's cage, but I don't want it to eat me." Get over it. Windows is a proprietary operating system. NTFS is its FS. FAT32 is legacy, and it's shite. You chose this path. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #66,314 by deSitter 12/3/02 12:27:55 AM Reply	Not faster either In fact, DOS FAT with its enormous clusters and no user context is the fastest FS of all. Speed is not the issue. It's not faster. Robust? In what sense? Because only NT can r/w it, you need to be running NT to repair it. But how, if the install is dead? FAT32 can be repaired from a boot floppy (as can Linux and ext2). -drl
Post #66,319 by pwhysall 12/3/02 12:42:17 AM Reply	Faster. Yes, faster. Whether you like it or not, NTFS is faster. Don't believe me? Try copying a 50GB file between NTFS partitions. Now do it between FAT32 partitions. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #66,322 by deSitter 12/3/02 12:53:02 AM Reply	Re: Faster. 50GB? One file? What kind of benchmark is that? I can see the little folders flying... NTFS is slower in the real world, with lots of fixed-place programs and small files, like browser cache and secretary letters. -drl
Post #66,326 by pwhysall 12/3/02 12:58:57 AM Reply	Whatever. The real world is people doing digital video of their kids. The real world is 80G of MP3, Ogg and WMA files. The real world is where NTFS outperforms FAT32 every fucking time. Just because you WANT it to be slower doesn't make it so. FAT32 is dead. Get over it. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #66,411 by deSitter 12/3/02 11:31:22 AM Reply	Re: Whatever. Do you think I was born yesterday? I've been dealing with NTFS since you were in school! Simple common sense tells you that NTFS is GUARANTEED slower because of the security and journaling overhead in most real world situations, assuming the same level of fragmentation and similar disk layout (cluster size etc). Unless the disk is badly fragmented, FAT32 results in less head motion (you can see this with your own eyes). NTFS has an advantage in speed of directory listings because of the MFT - thus if many, many tiny files are stored in a complex directory structure, with at least some of those directories having hundreds and hundreds of entries, there can be a significant performance increase. But who has a disk setup like that? For an applications-oriented disk, this single speed advantage of NTFS is moot. The only case I can think of where this might be significant is say a browser cache that is enormous on a machine with a high-speed network link. For very large files, the actual file system is almost irrelevant and the main issues are cluster size and fragmentation. -drl
Post #66,311 by Steve Lowe 12/3/02 12:24:06 AM Reply	Re: FAT32? NTFS partitions can be resized. I've done it on this very machine with Partition Magic running Win2K/NTFS. (Does fips do NTFS? Never checked..) AFAICT, the only valid reason to run FAT32 in lieu of NTFS would be on a multi-boot machine where you wanted to be able to mount the windows partition R/W from Linux. ----- Steve
Post #66,316 by deSitter 12/3/02 12:30:56 AM Reply	PQ has NDA with Borg -drl
Post #66,318 by bepatient 12/3/02 12:40:34 AM Reply	No really relevant.. ..as you said it couldn't be done. I'd imagine that more than just Peter Steve and I have resized ntfs partitions. PartitionMagic is one of a very few programs that I have bought and kept current through many upgrade cycles. If you play around with OS's...its a must have ap...even if they did sign a deal with the Borg (it does Linux filesystems and hpfs also) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #66,320 by deSitter 12/3/02 12:48:54 AM Reply	Re: No really relevant.. I said - it could not be done unless you had an NDA with MS. Now, why is this important? Let's say you get a laptop with XP preinstalled. You fire it up, XP installs itself, and now you cannot install Linux unless you buy a piece of software that pays yet another MS tax - that is, YOU pay it. So, you install Linux FIRST, and do the resizing, before XP gets its shots in. Even then you have a big hda1 that Linux cannot read/write. Not a good setup. -drl
Post #66,323 by pwhysall 12/3/02 12:53:25 AM Reply	So? Don't buy a computer with Windows on it, then. Windows can't read/write your reiserfs partitions either, but you're not bitching about that. I repeat: if you're running Windows, "open" is just a word to describe a door that's not closed. It's certainly got nothing to do with your computer. This is not a comment about the quality of either Windows or Linux - it's just an observation. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #66,750 by kmself 12/4/02 6:32:31 PM Reply	Resierfs access from NT/XP Google for "reiser4win", there's a tool which provide read-only access from Windows. There are also ext2fs file manglers offering access to ext2 (and presumably ext3) filesystems. --\r\n Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link\|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/\|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
Post #66,765 by folkert 12/4/02 8:21:55 PM Reply	Betchya can guess what I'm gonna say... [link\|http://p-nand-q.com/e/reiserfs.html\|Reiser4Win is now --> RFSTOOL] [link\|http://www.it.fht-esslingen.de/~zimmerma/software/ltools.htm\|LTOOLS for Windows RW access for Ext2] Some older docs at [link\|http://penguin.cz/~mhi/fs/\|File-Systems HOWto] I like this [link\|http://www.penguin.cz/~mhi/mbtmgr/\|MATTsoft Boot Manager], haven't used it yet... but working on it. `[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!] Your friendly Geheime Staatspolizei reminds: Use your computer, we'll sample your DNA and imprint your eyes. SELECT * FROM politicians WHERE iq > 40 OR WHERE ego < 1048575; 0 rows found`
Post #66,332 by bepatient 12/3/02 1:10:46 AM 12/3/02 1:12:32 AM Reply	No...you didn't. You said flatly it couldn't be done. NTFS also changes at a whim, can't be resized, and still after all these years has only beta support r/w. Now you've invented this MS tax thing. If you are running windows (which you obviously are)...then why the fuck are you bitching about the Windows tax. PM is a utility that everyone should have. ESPECIALLY if you are installing multiple operating systems. I don't give a shit where their money goes..as long as it has the fitness of purpose for which I paid...which it does...many times over. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Dec. 3, 2002, 01:12:32 AM EST Expand All History
Post #66,371 by n3jja 12/3/02 7:58:34 AM Reply	Ab-so-fraggin-lutely! PM is a utility that everyone should have. ESPECIALLY if you are installing multiple operating systems. Nog that shit! I wouldn't be without it. I don't give a shit where their money goes..as long as it has the fitness of purpose for which I paid...which it does...many times over. You've actually PAID for yours? You're hanging out in the wrong places. (wink, wink; nudge, nudge)
Post #66,382 by bepatient 12/3/02 9:57:33 AM Reply	There are some things... ...for which I will pay. PM is one. Virus updates for Norton AV is another. I hang out in those places...but usually only get Microsoft products there ;-) stylewhack n3jja You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #66,385 by deSitter 12/3/02 10:16:13 AM Reply	Re: There are some things... Well, if I were in play mode I'd need a copy - but all I needed was a one-time divvy of my disk for 2k, 98, and Linux. Why spend $100 for a one-shot operation? -drl
Post #66,399 by bepatient 12/3/02 11:02:56 AM Reply	Simple And this happens to my multi-boot machines all the time... At some point the work involved on one of the partitions may become storage intensive...at which point PM allows you to reduce one partitions size and expand anothers...my laptop sees this activity on a regular basis...where I recently needed a dos only environment for a project (needed to reinstall and run a legacy reporting package) ...created the partition...installed dos and all necessary files...and did so in minutes. This was work related...not play...and the flexibility that PM allows and the time it saves is well worth every penny I have ever paid to Powerquest. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #66,401 by deSitter 12/3/02 11:08:40 AM Reply	Whatever I'll never be part of the Collective, it seems. I'm often amazed at how often being wrong seems to infect more or less everyone in more or less the same way. -drl
Post #66,404 by bepatient 12/3/02 11:17:34 AM Reply	Relax man... ...I've been a walking advertisement for PartitionMagic since the utility was released. Just trying to show you how useful that investment (or lack thereof in Jim's case) can be. You didn't see utility in paying for a one-off (you could ask Jim where >those< places are ;-) ) and I can absolutley respect that...but I find the thing so damned useful that I thought I could point out another use that may make acquiring a copy useful for you. There are less than half a dozen software applications that have ever made that "must have current at all times" list with me. PM is one of them. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #66,406 by admin 12/3/02 11:23:27 AM Reply	Soooo..... PM is one of them. So you're saying you aren't troubled by Partition Magic's Success...? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #66,409 by n3jja 12/3/02 11:26:19 AM Reply	chuckle
Post #66,430 by bepatient 12/3/02 12:56:07 PM Reply	what are you laughing at ??? :-) navarone n3jja You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #66,432 by n3jja 12/3/02 1:01:46 PM 12/3/02 1:02:38 PM Reply	mauser bepatient Which is most appropriate considering the French comment made elsewhere. ROFL Edited by n3jja Dec. 3, 2002, 01:02:38 PM EST Expand All History
Post #66,408 by n3jja 12/3/02 11:25:37 AM Reply	Now just a minute.... I've been a walking advertisement for PartitionMagic since the utility was released. SHILL!!! SHILL!!! (Well if was good enough for Peter...... ;-P) Just trying to show you how useful that investment (or lack thereof in Jim's case) can be. Watch it! I resemble that remark.... ;-) stylewhack2 bepatient
Post #66,395 by n3jja 12/3/02 10:50:43 AM Reply	whackamole bepatient There are some things... ...for which I will pay. PM is one. I don't since they abandoned HPFS. Call it a mild form of protest, if you like. Virus updates for Norton AV is another. I pay for those because my "significant other" is heavily dependent on The Beast, but personally I don't use NAV (no current version that runs on OS/2, even if I were to run any AV on OS/2 in the first place (which I don't)). I'm not booted into Winders enough to justify running NAV and I certainly don't have anything on that partition that I can't restore in 2 hours or less (probably more like 1 hour).
Post #66,445 by andread 12/3/02 3:21:08 PM Reply	free AV why not go to [link\|http://www.grisoft.com\|Free AV s/w] and get this for your sig. other Can't beat the price and it can be set to update automatically A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #66,461 by bepatient 12/3/02 5:42:01 PM Reply	Cool.... ...thanks. Hows the overhead? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #66,607 by andread 12/4/02 10:10:37 AM Reply	Re: Cool.... uses about 2 megs when it loads but inches up if you run the scans every nite and of course scan all email to maybe 8-9 megs A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #66,637 by bepatient 12/4/02 11:54:53 AM 12/4/02 11:55:24 AM Reply	A little heavier than NAV... ...but cheaper by far ;-) I'll give it a head to head on home machines...see what happens. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Dec. 4, 2002, 11:55:24 AM EST Expand All History
Post #66,380 by folkert 12/3/02 9:03:46 AM Reply	I like my blubber-32.... But I can convert to NTFS whenever I feel the need or desire or mandate... `[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!] Your friendly Geheime Staatspolizei reminds: Use your computer, we'll sample your DNA and imprint your eyes. SELECT * FROM politicians WHERE iq > 40 OR WHERE ego < 1048575; 0 rows found`
Post #66,136 by inthane-chan 12/2/02 1:32:02 PM Reply	2k. 1. No bloated UI cruft. 2. No KNOWN "phone home to Redmond" code. 3. It works. 4. It works. 5. It works. Win2k is FAR from out to pasture yet. It sounds like for what you need (dev work) it will do everything you need it to. No games (and Win2k actually handles most games reasonably well... I've actually run old DOS games in a shell, without sound. The Windows XP compatability stuff was rolled into Win2k without any real fanfare around SP2.) just dev - and that fits Win2k. Enjoy!

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