Suffering can provide clarity

Post #60,176 by ChrisR 10/30/02 9:58:06 AM Reply	Suffering can provide clarity The answer may well differ, if one steps away from the individual and into the domain of the societal. For example, the troops that stormed the scenic beaches of France and subsequently marched through Europe underwent some rather gruesome suffering and death. Are you saying that their sacrifice was in vain? Or is the freedom we have exactly because of those individuals that sacrificed themselves in a prior era? Personally, I dislike the prospects of suffering - it plainly sucks. But suffering is perhaps the greatest teacher that we, as somewhat scentient beings, have. I would agree that the suffering is not so important in and of itself - only the lessons that it burns into our consciousness and our willingness to confront it - sometimes causing more short term pain in exchange for long term gain.
Post #60,185 by deSitter 10/30/02 10:23:14 AM Reply	Absolutely Beethoven is all about that idea - he even raises it to a metaphysical question - Must it be? It must be! -drl
Post #60,209 by inthane-chan 10/30/02 11:33:05 AM Reply	Re: Suffering can provide clarity The answer may well differ, if one steps away from the individual and into the domain of the societal. For example, the troops that stormed the scenic beaches of France and subsequently marched through Europe underwent some rather gruesome suffering and death. Are you saying that their sacrifice was in vain? Or is the freedom we have exactly because of those individuals that sacrificed themselves in a prior era? Ben said: There is a reward for doing something about the circumstances that are causing you suffering. I don't think that you two are in such contradiction as you think... End of world rescheduled for day after tomorrow. Something should probably be done. Please advise.
Post #60,219 by ChrisR 10/30/02 12:11:35 PM Reply	Not sure I'm not really looking for an argument, but what I was trying to get across is that sacrifice can have rewards that extend beyond the individual. In the case of individual soldiers, their death & suffering didn't seem to maximize their own personal utility. Their sacrifice, however, did buy me my freedom. I would think that the sacrifice of the individual is very much consistent with the Darwanian view that the survival of a species is also a goal. Not so much a religious argument, as questioning at what level one measures the utility of sacrifice.
Post #60,336 by Ashton 10/30/02 9:08:41 PM Reply	I've found useful a certain distinction between suffering and ~intentional suffering. Ex: when you decide to conceive a child, you voluntarily embark upon a mix of joy + suffering - about which you cannot even remotely guess .. what's next. But you know that for ~18 years minimum: you shall be Responsible. The suffering of a traffic accident (especially a solo one not involving the sudden breaking of the frame in 3 pieces?) .. is never an intentional event. Not even a particularly good example, that. Here a deranged view of 'causality' rears it's ugly head - deranged because it is insoluble in this context - except for lunatics, forensics and lawyer-type punctilious mindsets. The troops in WW-II, at least some of those: had an idea of what was worth the risk of dying-for. It is from this kind of voluntary suffering that we get the Beethovens ;-) and from a succession of 'the daily accidents' we often get the serial killers (who never noticed that their own actions created their finally deranging.. accumulation of 'sufferings'). Ashton Attitude is All (we have the slightest control over, ever)
Post #60,461 by Brandioch 10/31/02 12:06:58 PM Reply	I think it depends upon the point of view. I'll use the soldier example. The Allies were "suffering" to achieve a goal when fighting the Germans. -but- The Germans were also "suffering" to achieve a goal when fighting the Allies. A woman in an abusive marriage can "suffer" because she hopes that he will change (she is "suffering" to achieve a goal). The suffering of a traffic accident (especially a solo one not involving the sudden breaking of the frame in 3 pieces?) .. is never an intentional event. Not even a particularly good example, that. Here a deranged view of 'causality' rears it's ugly head - deranged because it is insoluble in this context - except for lunatics, forensics and lawyer-type punctilious mindsets. The world is a hazardous place. Sometimes, things happen. They happen to you because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Take what precautions you can and realize that you are not immortal nor invincible nor are you guaranteed anything in this life.
Post #60,364 by ben_tilly 10/30/02 11:49:22 PM Reply	Inthane is right - we don't necessarily differ by that much That which is worth doing may involve suffering. Some amount of suffering seems to me to be the price of human being human. Where it it needed it is not to be avoided. Where it is not needed it should not be accepted needlessly. It is not the suffering that makes it worth the doing, nor the pain experienced which accomplishes the task. In your case of WW II it is not by and large the ones who died who made the difference. Rather it was the ones who survived to complete the mission. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]

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