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New Possibly worlds largest hostage crisis underway in Moscow
Reported on CNN that 40-50 gunmen (and women) some supposedly with explosives strapped to their bodies, are holding between 500-700 hostages in a theatre in northern Moscow.

Is reported that they are insisting that the war in Chechenya be ended - they are also said to have threated to start killing their hostages. There are reports that several people have been released.

Putin claimed on Russian TV that this incident appears to be planed an executed by international terrorist (has no direct mention yet of al-Qaeda).

#2 Found a link
[link|http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/24/1035416928675.html|Putin to negotiate]

Doug Marker


Putin will negotiate rather than storm theatre: expert

By Jonathan Pearlman
October 24 2002

The Russian government will negotiate a settlement with the hostage takers rather than risk bloodshed in the heart of Moscow, according to a Russian studies academic.

"This is not the first time there's been a hostage crisis, but it's the first time it's happened right in the centre of Moscow, which might make the way it is dealt with difficult," said Stephen Fortescue, who teaches Russian politics at the University of New South Wales.

"The Russians won't be able to do it the boots and all way. They will try to bring about a peaceful settlement but they won't meet the hostage taker's demands.

" I think the Russian government would offer the aggressors safe passage to get the hundreds of people out."

In the long-term, Professor Fortescue said he believed the Russian government would support concessions to the Chechen independence movement.

"The Russian people don't like the Chechens - they think they're a bunch of bandits - but they don't care too much about controlling the territory. They want a peaceful resolution to the crisis which does put some pressure on the government."

Professor Fortescue said Russian governments tended to overestimate the support of the Russian people for conflict with the Chechens.

"Boris Yeltsin started a war against the Chechens in 1995 before an election to increase his support. But it backfired.

"[Russian President Vladimir] Putin started a war in late 1999 - though it was also a response to buildings being blown up in Moscow - and his approval ratings have been very high. But I don't think Putin's popularity is related to Chechnya - it's due to domestic and economic policies."


Expand Edited by dmarker Oct. 24, 2002, 07:37:21 AM EDT
New Karl Popper's view of the Problem(s)
.. a neighbour of yours ;-)

Stalemate - both have sufficient force to carry out a really Ugly scenario, and neither group may be accused of, lack of Will (you know - that stuff via which G. Gordon Liddy of Watergate fame: places hand in candle flame, says, Of course it hurts; the trick is.. not to mind.)

The only collective sense I can derive from all these events - from the usual hit/run to the more suspenseful hostage-type ploys is, a Y2K acting-out of the theses in Karl Popper's, The Open Society and its Enemies \ufffd 1950 [ad interim copyright granted 1946]. Its face-plate quotation is:
It will be seen ... that the Erewhonians are a meek and long-suffering people, easily led by the nose, and quick to offer up common sense at the altar of logic, when a philosopher arises among them ... Samuel Butler
In his Preface he says,
If in this book harsh words are spoken about some of the greatest among the intellectual leaders of mankind, my motive is not, I hope, the wish to belittle them. It springs rather from my conviction that, if our ivilization is to survive, we must break with the habit of deference to great men. Great men may make great mistakes; and as the book tries to show, some of the greatest leaders of the past supported the perennial attack on freedom and reason. Their influence, too rarely challenged, continues to mislead those on whose defence civilization depends, and to divide them. The responsibility for this tragic and possibly fatal division becomes ours if we hesitate to be outspoken in ourcriticism of what admittedly is a part of our intellectual heritage. By our reluctance to criticize some of it, we may help to destroy it all.

The book is a critical introduction to the philosophy of politics and of history, and an examination of some of the principles of social reconstruction. Its aim and the line of approachare indicated in the Introduction. Even where it looks back into the past, its problems are the problems of our own time; and I have tried hard to state them as simply as I could, in the hope to clarify matters which concern us all.

Although the book presupposes nothing but open-mindedness in the reader, its object is not so much to popularize the questions treated as to solve them. In an attempt, however, to serbe both of these purposes, I hace confined all matters of more specialized interest to Notes which have been collected at the end of the book.

Christchurch, N.Z.
April 1944
It is obv a Tour de Force, with chapter titles such as, Heraclitus, Totalitarian Justice, Leadership, Utopianism, Socialism, Capitalism, Hegel, The Open Society ... No person who could achieve the Presidency of the US via the Language-fucking that is Required here - is apt to have read such IMO (John & Robert Kennedy excepted - wonder re Bill C. as Rhodes Scholar, though). Perhaps some Euro leaders du jour would stand a better probability, simply because their education is much more apt to be ept.

In any event, today we are living out this Title just as portentously as when Popper first addressed the ideas for this book in 1938, following the Anschluss. He had plenty of time to refine and edit. Only by reading it can anyone assess his performance in attempting compaction of a liberal arts Western education into a useable synopsis - in pp 732. [!!] I doubt that any compression algorithm can produce a Readers Digest version for the attention-span deprived.

Dubya + cabal of course, neither would nor could - manage one page, despite Popper's eschewing of academese for plainest possible English Language. This book won't save us, but I think that if homo-sap are to be saved from our collective cant, hypocrisy and Damnable theologically-fueled spite -?- Popper's words in hindsight, would adequately explain "how it was managed".


And so it goes,

Ashton
New "the habit of deference to great men"
Man, have we got that one licked.

Now if we can get past the habit of deference to noisy men...
----
Whatever
New A droll denouement__;-)
New BBC's reporting it's over - Russian troops in control.
[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2363341.stm|Here].

On a BBC TV report I saw tonight, one of the reporters was saying he thought hundreds were probably killed, but that's not mentioned in the web story.

It must have been a terribly bloody mess. :-(

Cheers,
Scott.
New Another Proud Moment for Islam
Is that gutter religion committing suicide? Let's hope.
-drl
New Not an iota of difference between their Fundament--alists
and 'ours'. Main difference is that We Rule and have become outspoken with such unutterably *STUPID* phrases as A Great Crusade.. and countless other mouthings of the Village Idiot since that one.

They Don't 'Rule' - except over their females and their [even more tightly-] indoctrinated, intentionally uneducated sheep. SO: they Hate US as we Despise Them for their Heresy of non-Jesus-like fantasies. We don't give a SHIT about their rendering females into cattle and chattel!! - not ever have we cared about that.

Fundament: where the asshole resides for excretion of waste. Things went awry when homo-sap began to talk from that same area, IMhO.

So.. what's the Difference here? Is a North pole inherently superior to a South pole - or do we believe in monads now ;-)


Ashton
Fundamentally sound er..
New Re: Not an iota of difference between their Fundament--alis
I think all organized religion is bad (although I still believe in God, whatever That is) but Islam seems to be the rottenest egg is a basket of stinkers.
-drl
New I'll buy that (till I see what We do next week)
New You might like this link.
[link|http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/09/Whoisourenemy.shtml|Who Is Our Enemy?]

Courtesy of addison.

Wade.

"Ah. One of the difficult questions."

New good link but the more I read the more errors I see


Why is it that the US is concerned about Iraq getting nukes when we don't seem to be as concerned about Pakistan or India or Israel? Why are we willing to invade Iraq to prevent it from getting nukes, but not Pakistan to seize the ones it developed? It's because those nations don't embrace a warrior culture where suicide in a good cause, even mass death in a good cause, is considered acceptable. (Those kinds of things are present in Pakistan but don't rule there as yet.)

Pakistan is a nation comprised of a thin vineer of the Raj on top of the Northwest Frontier. Perhaps they get a pass because of their commonwealth status, but make no mistake the hill tribes can get nasty once they get rolling, there is enough Englishmen buried about the place that can attest to that. Their arms manufacturing ability is world reknowned and tribalism is their defining trait, not religion.

We will be the primary target because we're the most successful. It's as simple as that. And that means that this ultimately will be a unilateral war by us; we're the ones with the most on the line. If the Arabs eventually do get nukes, the first one they use will either be against Israel or against us. It won't be against Europe, and if more conventional terrorist attacks continue, the most damaging ones will be directed against us. We will pay most of the price for this war, in staggering amounts of money, in losses on the field of battle, and in death and destruction at home, and therefore any talk of unified multilateral international action by a coalition of equals is nonsense. The other nations won't risk as much and won't pay as much and won't contribute as much and therefore deserve less say in what will happen.

nonsense I expect and predict that the first nuke by terrs will be in europe or eastern europe. There is enough anti euro sentiment as there is anti american sentiment. With almost all euronations making predatory attacks on guest workers a national sport resentment is high and the fear factor is less, they know we WILL use a nuke. After hanging about with the brits during the last century they know they are stone killers. The french has the bomb and has blownup groups in 3rd countries like NZ so they might be leery but the Allemagnes do the most damage to guest workers and are fearful of housing or using nukes, look to them for the first one.


* Restrictions on the free flow of information.
* The subjugation of women.
* Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure.
* The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization.
* Domination by a restrictive religion.
* A low valuation of education.
* Low prestige assigned to work.


* restrictions on the free flow of information
China, DC law enforcement on the sniper, FOI act gutted here. Official Secrets Act commonwealth. Corporate media

* The subjugation of women.
Depends on the subjegation. Taliban bad. But have personally disported with Persian, Afghan, indonesian etc to know a couple of things, in public it is massa who rules behind the scenes the woman rules with an Iron vulva, machismo is just another word for not admitting PW in public. Dont believe me? Ask a korean man wether it is harder to get a wife to be quiet or spend money, come back in a day or two and lead the confused man home. INTHANE!!!! back me up here

* Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure.
ROFL! no comment needed
* The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization.
Can you say mafia, triads or iwethey?

* Domination by a restrictive religion.
In certain periods when the University of Paris had 14 books and the Caliphate of Cadiz spain had a mile long street of book sellers there was 2 dominent religions and only the muslim had a need for science
* A low valuation of education.
Underclass America, this is entirely not true. I have met Saudi's at different learning institutions and they are eager to learn as any FSU freshman
* Low prestige assigned to work.
every culture in the world snobs out the working class, remember Union wars? Why communism was embraced to get away from the "ruling Class"?

There is a real problem that cannot be resolved with either religious or culture wars. A war is needed not to change a culture or a religion but for better men to overcome the narrow prejuidices of the inward looking man. A global version of a cross between the French Foreign Legion and the Peace Corp is needed. Total dicipline, working to assist poverty in lands not their own. Part of the black/white thing in America is because the forced draft does not force crackers to be bunked next to homies and work together. Peoples vision in this country has narrowed to where both cultures(in Brandi's case colors) are afraid of the other.
thanx,
bill





will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
New I spotted some of those.
For instance, the education point.

I included the link purely because I thought the general sentiment of the piece was worth mentioning. I can agree that what is driving some of the terrorism are Arab or Islam influenced elements who seem to be still living in the 14th century.

Wade.

"Ah. One of the difficult questions."

New Still - what century is the rest of the world living in?
New More thoughtful than most.__ Fatally flawed.
It's core revolves around a definition of Success. It is so apparent to the author that *We* Are indeed Successful, that one is forced to infer that - achievement of monetary wealth, next wielding of the Power which liquid 'assets' can purchase == Success. Corraling of an obscene share of all planetary wealth is surely THIS kind of 'Success'.
(I believe that IS the Western definition or close enough.)

The inventiveness which he also lauds, and which few would argue is a characteristic of American history, culture - certainly once resided in the longest-lived of all the Empires (as he correctly notes). Then Machiavelli led to Greed as OK and actually God.. on to Billy, imaginary 'work', cubicles and PHBs.

Fundamentally then , I disagree with the above simple definition of Success.. though agree the word has limited utility in a $-besotted single-purpose idea of 'life'. Since I disagree that we (the US + like-mindeded) are successful ie as a civilization which could long endure (next) - naturally I don't buy his rationale for a US-proctored cultural kernel upgrade unless: the US First recognize the mote in its own eye. [Probability: 0]

Organized religion is the pop construct of concepts which has produced both the mere financial emphasis of Life Itself! and which guarantees endless wars over each Logo's terminal insanity of claiming, Sole Righteousness [hence Wrongness of all others]. This via an ersatz religiosity which has little to do with the 'spiritual'/metaphysical ideas imperfectly expressed. These are of little interest to the mass of 'believers' anyway.

No next massive maturity of homo-sap seems remotely thinkable in this superstitious environment, and especially within the overhead of deeply inculcated intolerance (accompanied by the usual hypocrisy on individual and group level). War is the natural product of religiosity, I aver.

Ergo: it's merely a less overtly bloodthirsty recipe than resides in the primitive mindsets of Dubya, Ashcroft, Foulwell (and various Mullahs - identical except for the principal anthropomorphic deities having different names and 'personal' peculiarities). But its attempt would still spill lots of blood, ongoing.

I don't believe anyone has a clue how to un-brainwash millions - except to re-wash in a mode familiar to that of the prevailing washer. Nukes can of course eliminate the need and, 'we' are clearly capable of trashing the entire planet in order to Prevail Righteously, after some unknowable state of provocation, via effective random strikes. In that regard are we all Suicide Bombers.

The latter might be a more honorable denouement than to force-create a world of tawdry entrepreneurs; an elite practising Billy-God marketing in one's subconscious 24/7.


Ashton


Give me Marketeer-free or Give Me Death
New Re: Without reading others reactions -I see gaping holes in

the writers logic and significant areas of distortion. There are other points that the writer makes quite well.

An example of blatant distortion is where the writer talks of ridding the world of Wahabbism whilst tlaking about Saddam and al-Qaeda - most people must know that Wahabbisim fas f*** all to do with Iraq. But the writer uses the point to link Iraq to something it is unrelated to. This is one of many distortions.

I do agree that many Arabs wanting to attack the west (such as OBL) do seem to be from failed cultures who want to destroy us so they don't have to face their own failure. But the writer is being disingenuous to describe Iraq as a failed culture - it was at one time, like Iran's Persians, one of the most advanced cultures but we have bombed them back to the stone age after sicking them on to Iran to save us the trouble.

Some of the resentment of us is because we so effectively block or attack any attempts they make to show leadership. I feel the writer does not understand this or is blinded by our own propaganda.

On balance I started out thinking the writer had a well thought out message but the more I read I became convinced the writer was in fact being somewhat disingenuous.

Doug Marker
New Ur has not failed
They invented cities.

Looks like some of the originals are about to get squished, but the cultural heritage lives on. Kind of like the healthy spot in the middle of a Lyme disease lesion - it doesn't mean the germ is defeated.

(Damn - I think I need to get the dosage raised again...)
----
Whatever
New All but one of 117 dead hostages died from gas.
[link|http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/27/moscow.putin/index.html|http://www.cnn.com/2....putin/index.html]

The vast majority of the deaths, 115, appear to have been caused by the mysterious sedative gas used to "neutralise" the 50 Chechen rebel hostage-takers before the raid by special forces early Saturday.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New I've heard all but two died of the gas...
Probably muslim extremists infilitrated the police dept and deliberately gassed the people.
New Re: I've heard all but two died of the gas...
Looks like their paramilitary swatters are as stupid and self-serving as ours. Not one of THEM died, because they waited for the gas to disperse before entering the theater, while the unlucky 116 suffocated and were poisoned.

NY Times this AM reports only one death from gunshots - probably the man who freaked out about 2 hours before the rescue and charged the exit.
-drl
New Wasn't a man...
It was a child. The child was missed when the hijackers opened fire, but a woman was hit and killed.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New The operation took 50 minutes
Russian TV proudly showed dead terrorists sitting in theater chairs, aparently dead of instant gas poisoning (Some had explosive belts on, one can see the "button" still held in the dead hand. Obviously not enough time to react.) And then, not a minute later, a deputy minister of whatever, the one who was responsible for the operation, goes on air and says that "according to the director of Hospital such and such, the dead hostages died of natural causes, such as heart attacks and lack of necessary medicines". The worst case of lying I've personally seen on TV. What I can't understand is why. They saved around 700 people. Why lie about the deaths of 100? (more likely 150 now, people are still dying of that crap).
--

We have only 2 things to worry about: That
things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
New I've been out of touch...
...but didn't the Russian troops shoot most of the terrorists when they stormed the theatre - just to make sure?
New I've heard that as well.
They claimed it was the only way to secure them.
End of world rescheduled for day after tomorrow. Something should probably be done. Please advise.
New Re: Stories we got was - kill all the women with bombs, then
kill the male terrorists. The women had the body bombs.

The Ruskies had spy cameras and listening gear in place throughout the ceiling & walls. Crept in through the drains & aircon ducts.

As awful as the death toll is I am f***ing certain it would have been a lot higher & the event a lot worse had they not acted as they did. I am sure a whole lot of bleeding hearts who never had to face the consequences of a total failure due to dragged out & gory murders, will scream blue murder that anyone died.

Other reports around now talk of many countries wanting to study the event and know of the gas so they can use the same tactics but hopefully refine the dosage & perhaps act sooner to prevent weakened hostages succumbing.

I for one truly believe Putin did the right thing only it might have been done sooner. It is easy to spit crits at the SF who went in but those bastards had to look death right i the eye & just because it was their job (alright, don't start on what Setznaz & regulars do to civvies in Chechenya - that is unfair <grin>)

Doug M
Expand Edited by dmarker Oct. 29, 2002, 09:13:25 PM EST
New On availability of medical help
Sheer guesswork from what I have heard:

Presumably the inside people had at least someone outside, perhaps with cel fone or other - for advance warning of something as obvious as.. 50 ambulances. Thus their arrival would certainly risk.. element of surprise. Now why they weren't positioned a mile or so away and dispersed - may be a valid criticism.

(No I have no explanation of the way the commandos were assembled invisibly, but must presume this is Tactics 101A and they were not singing marching songs)

Otherwise, from what I've heard recently of the putative composition of the gas: one substance used as an antidote to certain alkaloids.. another component a pharm-chem substance alleged 1000x more potent than morphine - seems likely they would have had little experience of using this on a significant number of civilians; little data to suggest exact dosages. Obv. they neded to incapacitate the human bombs or risk total destruction of the building + occupants + their own troops.

So I concur: Putin did the best he could manage - pending any weird shit that next surfaces.

Ashton
     Possibly worlds largest hostage crisis underway in Moscow - (dmarker) - (24)
         Karl Popper's view of the Problem(s) - (Ashton) - (2)
             "the habit of deference to great men" - (mhuber) - (1)
                 A droll denouement__;-) -NT - (Ashton)
         BBC's reporting it's over - Russian troops in control. - (Another Scott) - (11)
             Another Proud Moment for Islam - (deSitter) - (10)
                 Not an iota of difference between their Fundament--alists - (Ashton) - (9)
                     Re: Not an iota of difference between their Fundament--alis - (deSitter) - (1)
                         I'll buy that (till I see what We do next week) -NT - (Ashton)
                     You might like this link. - (static) - (6)
                         good link but the more I read the more errors I see - (boxley) - (2)
                             I spotted some of those. - (static) - (1)
                                 Still - what century is the rest of the world living in? -NT - (Ashton)
                         More thoughtful than most.__ Fatally flawed. - (Ashton)
                         Re: Without reading others reactions -I see gaping holes in - (dmarker) - (1)
                             Ur has not failed - (mhuber)
         All but one of 117 dead hostages died from gas. - (admin) - (8)
             I've heard all but two died of the gas... - (Simon_Jester) - (7)
                 Re: I've heard all but two died of the gas... - (deSitter) - (6)
                     Wasn't a man... - (admin)
                     The operation took 50 minutes - (Arkadiy) - (4)
                         I've been out of touch... - (ChrisR) - (3)
                             I've heard that as well. - (inthane-chan) - (2)
                                 Re: Stories we got was - kill all the women with bombs, then - (dmarker) - (1)
                                     On availability of medical help - (Ashton)

Anyone who would spend $5000 on a laptop is either Todd, or out of his mind.
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