Post #57,329
10/17/02 10:10:54 AM
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Aussie Press strat to look at military & Kopassus
[link|http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/10/16/1034561211120.html|Should the military be on the list of suspects?]
I figured someone would get round to this sooner or later .....
The Age Australia ...
Should the military be on the list of suspects?
October 17 2002
Political leaders should not be too hasty in pointing the finger of blame at al Qaeda.
Alexander Downer has derided the line of suspicion as "silly", but surely some in his entourage - as he did the rounds of Indonesian military and police chiefs in Jakarta yesterday to discuss the Bali bombing - might have wondered how clean were some of the hands they were shaking.
There is a long history of political manipulators within the Indonesian armed forces, or TNI, playing with the fire of Islamic extremism and staging incidents of terrorism, as well as the institution itself carrying out state terror as in Aceh, Ambon and East Timor - directly or through militia proxies.
This immediately was in the minds of some Indonesia experts after the Kuta Beach bombing, as Downer, among others, pointed the finger at al Qaeda and its Indonesian followers.
Journalist David Jenkins recalled (on this page on Monday) the Machiavellian use of former Darul Islam fanatics by the intelligence chief Ali Murtopo during ex-president Soeharto's New Order, leading to acts of terror - such as the 1980 hijacking of a Garuda Airlines jet - that were used to justify political crackdowns.
Deakin University's Greg Barton (again on this page on Monday) cited the more recent bombings that hit Jakarta as attempts were made to bring Soeharto and other New Order figures to account.
These bombings in 2000 included a car-bomb explosion outside the residence of the Philippines ambassador, and a huge car-bomb blast in the underground car park of the Jakarta Stock Exchange, for which two members of the army special forces, or Kopassus, received jail terms.
The explosive used in at least one of these bombings was C4, the charge used in the Bali bombing. That by itself does not prove much. Developed for US forces during the Vietnam War, the plastic explosive is manufactured in several countries and is widely used by armies and terror groups. The al Qaeda boat attack on the destroyer USS Cole employed C4.
Even if the Bali explosive is traced by some chemical signature to stocks held by the TNI, the possibility remains it could have been obtained by al Qaeda or Jemaah Islamiah from sympathisers or corrupt elements within the military.
But the Jakarta Stock Exchange bombing, in particular, should make Australian and other Western leaders hold back from hasty conclusions.
Just two years ago, Indonesian military elements were prepared to cause massive casualties and huge economic disruption in their own capital for the purposes of elite-level politics. Could such minds have been impelled to stage a new incident of horror?
Any one of several present threats to vested interests could provide a motive. Although President Megawati Sukarnoputri often seems to have sold out to her former repressors during the New Order years, her 14 months in office have seen several blows at entrenched New Order or "status-quo" forces.
The heaviest was the four-year jail term recently given to the parliamentary speaker and Golkar party chief Akbar Tanjung, who remains in his posts while his case is under appeal. Another is the constitutional changes that will end the TNI's special representation in the legislature in a couple of years.
Its position threatened at home, the TNI is also shunned internationally and starved of desperately needed equipment, as a result of its involvement in the East Timor terror. Jakarta's failure of accountability for Timor remains a huge obstacle to resumed military ties with the Americans.
The TNI's image is also tarnished by the evident backing of its Strategic Reserve Command (Kostrad) and other elements for the Laskar Jihad, a force of Islamic fanatics set against the Christian communities in the Moluccan islands and the coastal towns of Papua.
What is emerging as the deliberate staging by Kopassus soldiers of a freedom fighter "ambush" last month near the Freeport mine at Timika, Papua, seems to have been the first deliberate targeting of foreigners. Three schoolteachers, two of them Americans and one an Indonesian, were murdered. The increase in Laskar Jihad activity and the Timika murders follow the posting as Papuan regional military commander of Major-General Mahidin Simbolon, who was shown by leaked Australian intelligence intercepts to have been a key figure in orchestrating the East Timor violence in 1999, from his then position in Bali.
The promptness with which the Laskar Jihad announced on Tuesday it was disbanding and withdrawing from Ambon only serves to illustrate the degree to which it was inspired from above.
The Bali bombing may well have been solely the work of Islamic extremists, rather than an effort by the "status-quo" forces to undermine Megawati or bring American support back to the TNI. But the immediate result will be that Islamic militants in Indonesia experience a crackdown on their activities, and Western governments are back in Jakarta talking about greater cooperation with Indonesian defence and security agencies.
One encouraging result is that Megawati has welcomed foreign investigators, perhaps realising what a threat the bombing represents to civilian democratic rule. We should wait for results from these forensic and intelligence inquiries before jumping to conclusions.
Meanwhile, if foreign support is directed not just to the hunt for terrorists, but to a decisive cleaning-up of the TNI by its so-far equivocal reformers such as Security Minister Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, Indonesia and our region will be made more secure.
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Post #57,464
10/17/02 9:51:04 PM
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Re: Another: Don't allow 'Forrest Gumpism' to blind your
judgement
Another clipping from the Melbourne Age
[link|http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/10/15/1034561158546.html|"Right wants us to leave our brains at the door"]
Don't allow 'Forrest Gumpism' to blind your judgment October 16 2002
There are reasons why the right wants patriotic dumbness to rule in the debate on our response to terrorism, writes Guy Rundle.
A couple enter a restaurant in Tel Aviv. The man hands the woman a flower. There's a loud bang and they both dive for the floor. A suicide bomber? No, it's the waiter pouring the champagne.
That's not a sick joke from an Internet hate-site but a comedy sketch from the Israeli TV show Only in Israel, a program watched regularly by one in four Israeli viewers and which - whatever its politics - gives new meaning to the word "fearless satire" (its most scarifying item was a parody of a Sesame Street-style show about road safety complete with a singing school bus that blew up at regular intervals).
How would such cool-headed satire fare in Australia? Not well, I would guess.
After the Bali bombing we are once again being asked to choose between the heart and the head, as though any form of analysis of the conditions within which terrorist groups form is callous and unthinking. In particular, any sort of analysis that looks at Western political behaviour that the terrorists may be targeting is seen as tantamount to giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
Age columnist Gerard Henderson, writing on this page yesterday ("Now we know how the US feels"), argues that academic Scott Burchill's analysis of terror as an "unintended consequence" of Western government actions is tantamount to saying that it is our "fault", while Angela Shanahan in The Australian says the bombing of a nightclub on a Pacific rim island has convinced her of the need to go to war - against Iraq, an Arab nation with no significant connection to Indonesia and no proven political links with the likely culprits.
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To be fair, the left has given such commentators some useful ammunition. There is a difference between suggesting a link between the Australian Government's extreme pro-US policy and terror, and suggesting that the occurrence of terror invalidates that policy.
The Howard Government's foreign policy should be rejected on its own grounds - because it's immoral and supports a repressive neo-imperial vision, not because it might anger ruthless people. After all, the Kuta bombing may be in response to our role in East Timor, which was - very belatedly - an honourable cause. Were that the case, it would scarcely invalidate our involvement in East Timor.
The Kuta bombing demands more analysis, not less, but sections of the right are deeply reluctant to countenance this for one big reason - the possible involvement of sections of the Indonesian military (TNI) in the atrocity and their links with Islamic fundamentalist paramilitary groups. We know there are links between the TNI and Laskar Jihad and there may be links with others. We know the military is furious and humiliated over Australia's role in East Timor. We know elements in the power elite make a speciality of using bombs to get people's attention - Tommy Suharto is doing time for just such a crime.
For decades our governments have supported the repressive role of the military in Indonesian life and helped to forestall the emergence of full civil society. We supported the kleptocratic Suharto family, whose chauvinist pro-Javanese internal policies contributed to the rise of separatist armed groups. Our military trained not only regular soldiers but the thugs and torturers of Kopassus, the Indonesian Army's special forces. It is not inconceivable that we trained those associated with the Kuta bombing, as the US armed and trained Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.
No wonder the right wants us to leave our brains at the door. People are beginning to notice that most terrorists are former clients of Western powers - people may even draw the conclusion that an ethical foreign policy, rather than a realpolitik, may be our greatest guarantor of long-term stability.
Militant Islamic fundamentalism is a potent ideology for people battered and humiliated by the extension of Western power and money into every area of global social life. Because it gives meaning to lives thrown into disarray by these forces, people are willing to die for it. The further extension of unjust and unilateral power will simply increase the numbers of willing martyrs exponentially.
We have never had a greater need for cool and calm reflection on our place in the world. Instead, we are being asked to subscribe to Forrest Gumpism - patriotic dumbness. Only in Australia.
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Post #57,471
10/17/02 11:40:56 PM
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Part of the problem is not only the leaders but the wonks
and not using humint properly. You need sleazoids and criminals and shooters and looters and cop types to penetrate, destroy these types of operators as well as to investigate. Western govs were burned in the 60's and 70's gutted their external ops folks. Even the french after hard ops in NZ got leery of turning out their best folks. Quite often rogue ops go bad but they go good enough times that cannot be discussed due to Natl Security and natural embarrasement that the good outweighs the bad. To use a classic example. Who got more hard core usable info Ghelen or Mueller? Yes Mueller was a nasty shit but was much more effective operationally than Ghelen. Any western govt has to have a deniable host of rogues and neer do wells working for them out of patriotic or other reasons that can be totally deniable. If you do not you are facing people who are willing to do the same to you and more. Do it, deny them if caught and scrifice them to legalities when needed. thanx, bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
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Post #57,475
10/18/02 12:04:25 AM
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Unfortunatly we can't
I agree with you in principle on this one Box.
But we can't afford to give the FBI the ability to use deniable agents in the US. They are simply too biased and too political. Even today, peace groups and other left wing, non-violent, protest groups are more likely to be infiltrated and monitered by the FBI then right wing organizations with long histories of violence and crime.
Worse yet, they have shown the willingness to protect criminals and even instigate crimes, when it suited their goals. Just look at the flame-up in Boston right now over the FBI and the Windhill gang. The FBI agents let a number of innocent men go to jail to protect informants that commited murder.
Jay
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Post #57,476
10/18/02 12:24:35 AM
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nope nope nope you missed an important point
deniability means if caught goto jail/execution etc. There is no free pass in a republic. We need people that are willing and able to go to jail and die if needs be. Liddy and I were at opposite ends of the gun in the 60's. He told his handler to off him if needs be. That is what I am looking for. Whoever runs this must be willing to die for his beliefs either by public trail and execution or by suicide if caught. Smith be thy name. No rats and a perfect cutout is needed. thanx, bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
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Post #57,480
10/18/02 3:38:08 AM
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Re: Bill, who were/are Ghelen & Mueller ?
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Post #57,503
10/18/02 9:35:52 AM
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Ghelen/Mueller SS/Gestapo respectively
Ghelen head of German CIA under Adm Canaris Mueller head of counter intel (internal)Gestapo Police head. thanx, bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
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Post #57,484
10/18/02 5:48:23 AM
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Re: Yet another report with tantalising al-Qaeda glimpses
[link|http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/10/17/1034561266864.html|From The Melbourne Age & Also mentioned in SCMP]
Excerpted from 2nd half ...
Mr Suyatmo said the probe was focusing on a group of eight people - seven Indonesians and one foreigner - who were being "intensively questioned".
The Australian Federal Police are saying little about the inquiry for fear of offending their Indonesian counterparts.
No group has claimed responsibility for the blasts, but suspicion has fallen on Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda and an Indonesian-based group, Jemaah Islamiah, which some link to al Qaeda.
Mr Saaf said the explosives that demolished the Sari nightclub were packed into a Mitsubishi L300 van. "That car was left on the street. That is from analysis because there was no human flesh found inside it," he said.
Investigators have said the C4 plastic explosives that were used were not made in Indonesia.
An Indonesian newspaper reported yesterday that seven foreigners, led by a Yemeni and a Malaysian, masterminded and carried out the Bali bombings.
The foreign group, which entered the country through Semarang, the main city in central Java on October 10, also included a European and two with links to a series of bombings in the Philippines, the Jakarta Post said.
The group is believed to have prepared the explosives in Semarang before using them to blow up the two bars in Kuta.
The Jakarta Post said that among the clues gathered by the intelligence services were phone calls to the Middle East from a house in Surakarta, a city 80 kilometres south-east of Semarang.
Surakarta is one of the main bases of hardline Muslim groups.
************************************** More murk for us to wade through ...
Doug M
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Post #57,506
10/18/02 10:11:39 AM
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OT: Forret Gump
Being a (relative) newcomer to the West, I've watched "Forrest Gump" for the first time only a few weeks ago. The character did not strike me as particularly patriotic. Honest to a fault and slow, but not gung-ho at all. Good for his country, but not thinking about it. I don't think he says anyting about home, or country, or freedom for the entire duration of the film.
By the way, there was that thing that was making rounds in parenting magasines a few years ago: Emotional IQ. On that scale, FG is not even dumb.
We have only 2 things to worry about: That things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
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Post #57,516
10/18/02 11:18:42 AM
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OT request
Can you set off your sig somehow (italics etc)? I like your posts, but they all seem to end with "We have only two things...."
-drl
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Post #57,553
10/18/02 12:55:12 PM
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Better?
Some text here...
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We have only 2 things to worry about: That things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
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Post #57,556
10/18/02 1:20:17 PM
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Thanks!
-drl
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Post #62,179
11/11/02 10:05:35 AM
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Hey, DM! Are those theories still alive and well?
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We have only 2 things to worry about: That things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
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