Use LVM?

Post #55,174 by broomberg 10/6/02 5:29:41 PM Reply	Use LVM? Usability VS cheapness vs politics. A while back I was really interested in Linux clustering. A very important piece of that is a Cluster File System It seemed the GFS from Sistina was the winner. Various clustering initiatives adopted it to use. It was initially GPL. It had been in active development for a while, and then it became non-GPL. They said that they never applied any patches that outsiders sent, so they were allowed. A open source version showed up by people who adopted the initial GPL version. But I'd like to never be in the situation where a system I was using, testing, giving feedback for, changes the terms. It is bait and switch. It seems to be happening again. The LVM that comes with Red Hat 8 was written by Sistina. I almost started using it. And now I don't know if I should. I don't mind paying for software. I pay a LOT for Veritas, which Sistina competes with in some areas. And I'd pay for the equivelant functionality. What I don't want to do it commit to an architecture, with certain price points, and then have to redo everything in 6 months.
Post #55,178 by folkert 10/6/02 5:50:28 PM Reply	Reason they never applied the patches... Is that they reviewed the patches and then they "fixed" the problem(s) themselves... Unfortuneately I am using LVM big time... I have been for a long while... IT IS stable... it is useable... it is very nice... I am about ready to use IBM's storage management... dunno... All I can say is LVM is NEARLY as fast as straight partitions... WTF is Sistina thinking? `greg - Grand-Master Artist in IT, curley95@attbi.com -- [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!] Your friendly Homeland Security Officer reminds: Hold Thumbprint to Screen for 5 seconds, we'll take the imprint, or Just continue to type on your keyboard, and we'll just sample your DNA.`
Post #55,186 by broomberg 10/6/02 6:14:54 PM Reply	Oh, they KNOW what they are doing Find an "enterprise" niche. Seed the market. Get people dependant. Revoke the GPL on the 1st patch. Start sending bills. They had to pull back early on the GFS because the various projects (Compaq SSI, etc) started using it, which means any problems show up before people are dependant on it. What they want is direct end users rather than developers using their stuff. That way it'll get implemented quickly, and then they OWN you. Just a wee bit cynical, ehh?
Post #55,225 by rickmoen 10/7/02 2:33:52 AM Reply	Ultimately, code and licensing are what count Once an instance of a codebase becomes lawfully available under with an open-source permissions grant from the copyright owner, it can then be maintained by anyone who cares, for as long as people want to expend the effort. So, given that the new LVM code from Sistina works, as long as it keeps on being maintained, Sistina's intentions and moral failings become irrelevant to the question at hand. I mean, if Sistina calls up Red Hat and says "We're not going to help maintain that LVM code, because we've decided to go all-binary again", I somehow don't think the sky is going to fall. More so if this is code in the standard kernel you're talking about, not just Red Hat's pile of patches. If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Post #55,414 by broomberg 10/7/02 11:38:55 PM Reply	Wow, a legend I saw your name and got thrown. Had to Google a bit to get my bearings. How'd you end up here? Note: I have a couple of chinchillas. Your habit of referring to small mammals around the dinos remind me of them. Back to topic: I dunno if the LVM is part of the kernel proper. I Googled a bit more and saw some patches sent to Alan Cox, so it seems to be. I initially thought it was pure external apply, with Red Hat packaging picking it up. With the amount of people using it now, I guess I can trust it'll be around for a while.
Post #55,434 by boxley 10/8/02 12:48:36 AM Reply	tight burrows and squeeking if the source is out there and you an use whats available there is no issues. If you wish to extend the source it might be up to you locally if the originators take enhancements in house. It is ACOS because the current LVM is a couple of scripts and barely useful. If you get something useful let me know because Neilson thinks this is the cats asshole and won look at me because I am not certified in this area, ping other server if othe server doesnt respond take over thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
Post #55,452 by broomberg 10/8/02 6:40:43 AM Reply	Translation please?
Post #55,473 by boxley 10/8/02 8:47:45 AM Reply	If you got the source its your to do what you please with it. No licensing issues. If the job it does appears to keep you happy for 2 years that is forever in IT time. I am currently twisted a the neilson folks who wont interview me because I dont have X time running LVM. Since it is "barely" better than a couple of keep alive and redundant scripts I have written myself to keep several machines up no matter what I feel slighted. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
Post #55,484 by broomberg 10/8/02 10:38:31 AM Reply	Sorry but you are wrong. LVM is a volume manager, and is WAY more than a couple of scripts. I'ts more like Veritas VM. And based on your assumption and reaction, I'd feel the same way about you if I was interviewing you for a position and exhibited that level of confident ignorance. IT time frames are based on either 3 or 5 years, ie: IRS writeoff time. Even if you are confident it'll be scrapped in 2, you HAVE to pretend to plan for the full time. And if you constantly build new systems, that time frame NEVER ends, so you have to plan for forever. And NOBODY is allowed to hack VM code at my company, nor are we qualified to hire someone who can. So we have to minimize our possibility for failure, and steer away from stuff we know we can't do.
Post #55,597 by boxley 10/8/02 8:03:48 PM Reply	not an interview but not even a call for an interview apologies I was writing about LVS(linux virtual server)not LVM(logical volume manager)pop! (removing head from ass). You are correct in what you asserted. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
Post #55,613 by deSitter 10/8/02 8:57:38 PM Reply	Re: Sorry What the hell got into you? When did you become such a prick? Are you back on drugs? Mabye you should be. Oxley would be a fucking credit to ANY organization, even one fronting - ahem - a giant like you. -drl
Post #55,617 by ben_tilly 10/8/02 9:08:04 PM Reply	You are reading that differently than I do Barry isn't saying what Bill Oxley would be like as an employee. He is saying how that snippet would come across if he didn't know anything about Oxley. And then added context. Which Oxley confirmed. As for why Barry said that, my guess is that it is because Bill Oxley is someone that Barry wouldn't mind hiring if he gets the opportunity, and if opportunity comes, Barry wants to see that work. Plus Barry likes a [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=50098\|good squabble] from time to time... Cheers, Ben PS Note who got all confused and worried in the thread that I linked to.... :-) "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #55,620 by deSitter 10/8/02 9:15:35 PM Reply	Re: You are reading that differently than I do I've known him via posts since 1996 or 1997 or so. Gradually his posts have taken the tone "Even in the midst of economic disaster, my enormous talent has staved off catastrophe time after time." And then, completely out of the blue, he basically tells Ox to fuck off when Ox didn't want to fuck "on" in the first place. -drl
Post #55,636 by boxley 10/8/02 10:09:33 PM Reply	naw barry's cool, he will grunt out a position and I will snarl back at him, no prob. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
Post #55,643 by broomberg 10/8/02 10:38:29 PM Reply	Wow, I NEEDED to reread that link I've been working with someone for about 6 years. He was at this company 5 years before me. A smart, very personable, technically oriented individual. He LOVED to help people. And he got fired over it. Well, not exactly fired over it, but was canned after making enough mistakes that his boss finally had an excuse to can him. Ya see, he spent so much time helping others, his own job performance slipped. Which in turn made his boss look like an idiot since he wasn't managing his employees well. I was in a meeting a while back with him. He was very helpful. He made suggestions that might actually have worked. But he wasn't REALLY sure, so he started down the path of over commiting and failure. I tried to get him to back down and not make so many suggestions. To keep his mouth shut for a while. To figure out the landscape, and the person who he was trying to help would use him as a scapegoat. I was unable to save him. That REALLY sucked. Note: Even with my "Godlike" powers (according to De), he was a lost cause. That was the about the time frame of the previous post that Ben pointed to. So my buddy was let go. At least he got a reasonable package out of the process. He started a new job pretty soon, but at a far lower salary. And was fired within 2 weeks. Not a team player. Huh? One of the most kind, considerate, sociable people I have ever met, "not a team player". Becase he made too many suggestions. He threatened the person in charge, the guy who set everything up. Note: He was TOLD to make suggestions. Just like Thane was. But they didn't really mean it. So now he is looking again. And this time, he WILL keep his mouth shut for a LONG time. DeS: I'm an above average techie. And I am in awe of the real brilliant people. And I don't spout politics to people who can harm me. And I try to get others to do the same. So shoot me. And while Greg may be one of brilliant, he's also fun to twist. I'd comment on you, but some day, someone will read this, and pass judgement on my ability to take crap from a random person, and I will shine. Box: We are in agreement, as usual, except for your home page. I REALLY wish you'd have a pure resume page. You said you can't afford two. So kill the jokes and the stuff that scares the HR idiots. Put it back when you have a secure job.
Post #55,646 by boxley 10/8/02 10:48:47 PM Reply	perhaps your co-worker had acheived go-nogo I have been in positions where I will offer suggestions that will be met with silence and active undermining, knowing such is going on and having had my fill of BS I will take great pleasure in rubbing noses into their shit until I am gone. Maybe he was at that point I dont know. As far as the web page goes the links are gone except for drudge and the dam cat. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
Post #55,648 by deSitter 10/8/02 11:02:59 PM Reply	Re: Wow, I NEEDED to reread that link You completely fail to understand - real helpfulness is a NATURAL state of mind, and is ALWAYS appreciated - in human, and not technical, ways. You are simply not helpful, and you've taken it to a new level - of disdain for the helpful - with this pitiful example of the possible costs (it always comes down to money with you). -drl
Post #55,652 by broomberg 10/8/02 11:37:05 PM Reply	Helpfulness? Not really. Helpfulness in the office based in reciprocity. There is a balance. My time is OWNED by my boss. There is an exact $$ amount that I cost. Time wasted is money lost. Even worse, I am expected to provide far greater value back to the company to cover my cost, plus overhead and profit. And my boss' bonus. So more money is lost than my salary when I stray. My boss' job to to correctly deploy his resources. He directs me, I do. I am usually self directed in that I have a dozen things in mind that I think I should be doing, but I keep my boss informed of my todo list, and he sets my top 2. So a random person is struggling. They are probably payed different from me, and their projects are also of different value. If they are far less than me, and I take time to help them without being directed, I am wasting company resources for no known reason. Maybe they are expected to take 2 weeks to do something I can do in a day, but they are payed less or use cheaper resources, so it is OK. On the other hand, if they are far more than me, I hopefully am contributing to a more important matter, but I can't know for sure. Either way, it is NOT my decision. It is my boss' decision. If it is a different department, with a different cost structure, then another manager is taking resources from my department. It is up to my boss to explicitly give permission to help. Note: We will ALWAYS take a few minutes to help anyone without this complex calculation. Especially if it involves teaching someone something, since that benefits everyone, which in turn is good for the company as a whole. But if it stretches past a few minutes, then we back off and tell them to talk to the boss. And if certain individuals come back again and again, while not performing a reciprocal favor, the balance is lost, and we will go out of our way NOT to help them. Maybe a certain manager has an inferiority complex, always hires idiots, who then go leach off others. You NEVER want to help these people. I sat down next to a new hire today. He been here 2 weeks. He seemed to be struggling. We all report up to the same person, but we have different titles and much different skill sets. He was doing a database update that should have taken 10 minutes, and he was on his 3rd hour. It was due in another hour. I talked it out with him. I then went to our boss, and asked if I could give an hour to both do the update and teach him how. I could have done it in about 3 minutes, but then he would have learned nothing. So I asked for more time and it worked out for everyone.
Post #55,653 by deSitter 10/8/02 11:39:20 PM Reply	As I said ..it always comes down to money with you. As long as you can justify the bottom line, any amount of hostility is justified. -drl
Post #55,654 by deSitter 10/8/02 11:39:36 PM Reply	As I said ..it always comes down to money with you. -drl
Post #55,656 by boxley 10/8/02 11:42:39 PM Reply	headcount headcount headcount for every IT action there is a bill due to someone. If you want sysadmin a to do b then there is a dollar cost associated with it. Training cost money. If it is out of your Organisational responsabilty someone owes a buck. re-read catch22. It is applicable to what we do. Doesnt always have to be dollar related but usually is. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
Post #55,657 by deSitter 10/8/02 11:43:59 PM Reply	And by the way.. ..helpfulness is based in a desire to see people succeed and prosper, not in "reciprocity" or whatever other binary structure you want to put into the place of feelings. -drl
Post #55,659 by broomberg 10/8/02 11:49:37 PM Reply	You don't understand responsibility It is always easy to spend other people's money. It is easy on the ego too. Look at me, I'm helpful. Wheeee. What is difficult is to restrain that urge, and do what you are paid to do.
Post #55,663 by deSitter 10/9/02 12:13:29 AM Reply	Oh that's rich! I am paid to make computers work FOR HUMAN BEINGS. That necessarily involves being helpful, because most of them have their feelings intact, and sometimes need reassurance and guidance in how to use them - you see, they somehow got the idea that people who make computers dance are smarter and better than they are, and they feel intimidated. It may be that GEEKS have gone out of their way to make things hard for them, because these GEEKS don't have THEIR feelings intact, and so go out of their way to piss on "lusers" who do out of hostility. Yes, I've had people who came back time and time again. So I showed them, time and time again. I think they wanted me back because I listened to them - they really knew how to do it, but they also knew I would listen. You never seem to factor feelings into the picture. That's too messy. That's not binary. -drl
Post #55,667 by broomberg 10/9/02 12:38:19 AM Reply	Hey. you mean they PAY you? You don't do it out of the goodness of your heart? I'm so sad. I thought you did it out of a tendancy toward human kindness.
Post #55,669 by deSitter 10/9/02 12:52:33 AM Reply	Imagine! -drl
Post #55,664 by deSitter 10/9/02 12:19:36 AM Reply	Also.. Who the fuck are YOU to lecture me about responsibility? You work in your family business. You can't fail. Like I told the Legend - get a day job. -drl
Post #55,666 by broomberg 10/9/02 12:35:56 AM Reply	Huh? No family business. I used to work with my brother, who had no ownership. He no longer works here. No companies in my family. Can't fail? I could be fired tomorrow, with NO recourse. Just stop producing. And start pretending the company's money is mine to waste as I please.
Post #55,668 by deSitter 10/9/02 12:50:11 AM Reply	My bad -drl
Post #55,504 by deSitter 10/8/02 1:36:55 PM Reply	Oooh! Lookee Mommy, a legend! (right) Mabye you should check out what an ass the Legend made of himself to our resident Marine. -drl
Post #55,529 by drewk 10/8/02 4:52:20 PM Reply	When did you get all reasonable? Defined of course as, "Agrees with me on this matter." === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #55,605 by deSitter 10/8/02 8:40:59 PM Reply	Re: When did you get all reasonable? I don't care how nutty you are, but to pull that "I'm a special legend smart ass" to a Marine is just proof of how full of shit you are. I've met a couple of these canonical legends. All of them together don't add up to one worthless maggot boot. -drl
Post #55,553 by broomberg 10/8/02 6:41:30 PM Reply	Sorry, I usually agreed with him While I admit he seems to go a bit overboard on the DIY to the whiners, it makes for good entertainment. His knowledge level is very high, and he WILL help people who help themselves. He just won't babysit. I'm happy to voice my appreciation when I have access to high level techs, and I also try not to abuse it since I understand how painful it is to deal with the clueless. I don't know the particular post you are referring to, so please direct me.
Post #55,563 by ben_tilly 10/8/02 7:02:02 PM Reply	You would have missed it It was on the mailing list. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #55,601 by Another Scott 10/8/02 8:15:10 PM Reply	Eh? I though UnixMonster was referring to this thread... [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=53158\|Here]. Could be wrong though - deSitter often gives too little context for my taste. But there you go. Cheers, Scott.
Post #55,609 by deSitter 10/8/02 8:53:27 PM Reply	That moniker is no more I distance myself from UNIX as much as possible, because of the extremely creepy culture-moss that has grown over it. In the end, it's just a stupid operating system - and an old, creaky, boring one at that. Die, unixmonster, die! Thou art naught but a spambucket! -drl
Post #55,622 by Another Scott 10/8/02 9:16:23 PM Reply	Just pulling your chain a little. :-)
Post #55,614 by ben_tilly 10/8/02 8:58:17 PM Reply	Ah... There were also a few threads on the mailing list which applied. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #55,618 by deSitter 10/8/02 9:10:48 PM Reply	Re: You would have missed it Oh, he was making an absolute ass of himself somewhere else? Well do tell! -drl
Post #55,637 by deSitter 10/8/02 10:17:33 PM Reply	Re: Sorry, I usually agreed with him How did I miss this little gem of self-sastifaction? Let's dissect it: "Whiners". So, the little (you MUST be little) God from Philly has divided the world into "whiners" and "worthy". Yep, classic UNIX culture. "He just won't babysit." Yep - babysitting "whiners" is not something the worthy do. Of course, you could have a user like I have, who is the chief accountant and ABSOLUTELY essential to the business, but married to console mode and so almost afraid to use his mouse. Now, sometimes I have to "babysit" this "whiner". Poor pitiful me, having to suffer this. "I am happy to voice my appreciation" - not "I am appreciative" - because the worthy like to refer to themselves in grand manners - they don't approve, they "voice appreciation". Uh huh. "I understand how painful it is to deal with the clueless." Well, I am happy to make a shortcut on the desktop of the clueless owner of the company that pays my bills - of course I am not in the "worthy" class so if I "voice" this little happiness, no one will "lend their hearing". -drl
Post #55,639 by boxley 10/8/02 10:29:00 PM Reply	thats not unix culture! unix culture is box goes into the governors office. Everyone was afraid to ask him if he wanted a computer thingy. I goes "Governor do you want a pc at your desk so you can get up to date information about your business and also hook into the state data net?" He goes "I already have the most up to date system." I goes "huh?" he points at the telephone and sez"when I pick that up I ask whatever I want to know and they answer me with it" I goes away thinking kewl, never thought about it that way. That is a classic unix response. The attitide you are refering to is the MSCE who knows 4 more mouse clicks than the loser and nods his head in mysterious cluelessness and goes yelping and whining to the bofh with every little problem and stabs said bofh in the back every chance he gets. (hi Jeff) thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
Post #55,679 by pwhysall 10/9/02 3:36:00 AM Reply	Oi! MCSE is bloody hard, I should know. :-) Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #55,702 by boxley 10/9/02 8:04:34 AM Reply	paper msce then will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
Post #55,705 by pwhysall 10/9/02 8:15:18 AM Reply	Haha. One might have been capable of being a paper MCSE back in the days of NT4, but in the W2K world it's just not a runner - there's 7 exams (4 core plus three electives) and they're bloody hard for a total of 24 hours of exams. I did thirty days of training and that doesn't including the days and days I spend swotting for the exams themselves. Paper MCSE? A term thrown about by those who don't know what the current MCSE qualification entails, methinks :-) Often, I think, the term arises in reference to MCPs - i.e. individuals who have passed ONE exam. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #55,734 by boxley 10/9/02 10:04:50 AM Reply	based on having one as a project manager She had the cert (nt4.0 at the time) and was screaming at me because she couldnt figure out how to open MSword under win3.1. She trained on 95 it seems and never actually took apart a computer much less understood how networks work. If the training has gotten better I will not refer to them that way again. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
Post #55,678 by pwhysall 10/9/02 3:31:48 AM Reply	Good grief. Did someone piss in your beer? Oh, that's right. Rick did :-) "He just won't babysit." Yep - babysitting "whiners" is not something the worthy do. Of course, you could have a user like I have, who is the chief accountant and ABSOLUTELY essential to the business, but married to console mode and so almost afraid to use his mouse. Now, sometimes I have to "babysit" this "whiner". Poor pitiful me, having to suffer this. Here's the deal. You're paid to support the accountant. Get over it. BTW, I think you've identified a training need there. Linux is a free operating system. The support is free, but the price of entry is that if you want help from the likes of Rick or even lil' ol' me, you're going to have to show some evidence of having done a little work yourself, before asking us to do it for you. Don't like that idea? [link\|http://www.microsoft.com/windows/default.mspx\|Click here]. Or even [link\|http://www.redhat.com/services/consulting/learning/\|here]. I'm a lurker on the official Exchange and Outlook newsgroups. I hardly look at them now, because the same old tired questions, THAT ARE ANSWERED IN THE DOCUMENTATION, clog it up. If you whine, like you did, it's a big lose because: 1. You don't give anyone any reason to help you. Why should we care that something "doesn't work"? 2. You don't give anyone who might be inclined to help any information at all to help them help you. Getting all pissy with Barry over the principle of wasting the company's time and money doing stuff you're not supposed to be doing doesn't help, either. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]

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