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New Tim O'Reilly on who is ethical
I have read [link|http://www.crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?mss:8027:200209:hlpdhbfgkkkhjgnapmgj|this email] several times, and got a case of mental indigestion. If it was anyone other than Tim I would probably flip the bozo bit, but I have a lot of respect for Tim's opinions.

Anyone have thoughts on the topic?

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New I think he needs to elaborate.
He has a point, but I don't think it's a good one. He might have a better one if he gave examples of Ballmer's ethical behavior.

Yes, the GPL has some coercive aspects to it. But it's right out there in the open and has been since v1. You don't have to worry about Stallman changing the terms once you've committed your business or livelyhood to his tools. You do with Ballmer.

In situations like this, it's often useful to "follow the money". Ballmer and Gates are clearly after power and riches. Stallman isn't. Ballmer and Gates want control of your data and code. Stallman wants to prevent others from controlling your data and code. Using that metric, Tim's wrong.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Slight disagreement.
The point I see is that Stallman is termed by Tim to be totally inflexable whereas Alchin would be more open minded. Not having personally met either one from what I have read over the years that is probably correct. Now the proposition that all software should be free is as correct as all software should be good. An admirable concept but hard to advance in the real world. Microsoft has made a lot of money by being "good enough" and cheap beating out a lot better more expensive software.
Actually I dont have a dog in this fight since my income is usually trying to get disparate software running on disparate hardware so people who actually do productive work can get to it.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
New Was that his point?
I couldn't quite tell.

I liked his Microsoft vs FSF ethics comparison - but I have a problem with "equally unethical". It's clearly only part of the picture, as you mentioned. But that doesn't hide his disagreement with the FSF's ethical stance.

Wade.

"Ah. One of the difficult questions."

New Coercion is wrong.
The theme seems to be:

Forcing a licensing decision on someone is bad.

Is the FSF forcing people to use the GPL?

Or does he disapprove of the FSF's 'marketing'?

The position that all software MUST be 'free' is dangerous - and wrong.

People get to choose. That's ethical.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
New Re: Tim O'Reilly on who is ethical
First off, thanks for posting the link. I spent a considerable amount of time (time I probably shouldn't have, but, oh, well...) reading most of the threads in that discussion. It was an excellent read and I much appreciate the opportunity.

I believe I know where Tim's coming from and what he's trying to say. After reading much of the discussion they were having, I came to the conclusion that he was trying to make a point using the comparison (taking advantage of the audience's dislike for MS). I don't know how strongly he feels about that actual comparison, though (my guess is that it was there to make a point, and wasn't meant to get too detailed into the depts of ethics).

[link|http://www.crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?msn:8031:hlpdhbfgkkkhjgnapmgj|This post from Tim] gives a little more explanation of what he meant (though he's referring more to FSF than RMS here).

I did run across [link|http://www.crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?mss:8048:hlpdhbfgkkkhjgnapmgj|this gem] which seemed to me to plainly differenciate the mental-model of hackers (good, bad, or indifferent) and non-hackers:

\n\n    Lynn> Quite the opposite.  Any restriction on our fundamental\n    Lynn> right to copy what we see should be on the terms of the\n    Lynn> people as a whole, not on the terms of those who would\n    Lynn> restrict our rights merely to serve their business model.\n    Lynn> If you can't make money within the terms set by (a properly\n    Lynn> balanced) copyright, you should take your ball and go home.\n    Lynn> I for one don't need your invention/work that badly.  If\n    Lynn> there are people who do, you can sit down negotiate a\n    Lynn> private agreement with them.  Just don't try to take\n    Lynn> advantage of selling on the public market.\n\nQuite the opposite.  Any restriction on our fundamental right to to\nshow our product to only those we choose [privacy], should be on the\nterms of the people as a whole, not on the terms of those who would\nrestrict our rights merely to serve their consumptive appetites.  If\nyou can't sate them within the terms set by (a properly balanced)\ncopyright, you should take your ball and go home.  I for one don't\nneed your money that badly.  If there are people who do, you can sit\ndown and negotiate a private agreement with them.  Just don't try to\ntake advantage of buying on the public market.\n


It's an interesting view of copyright, IMHO.

Again, thanks for the link. Though Tim's point may have used a less-than-appropriate metaphor (and I'm not sure that I agree with him in its use), his point has value (that he's concerned with the FSF and RMS in the their "social" change).

Dan
New You are welcome for the link
That mailing list is one that Karsten introduced me to. Any mailing list which is known to attract Tim O'Reilly, Brian Fox, and Bob Young is doing pretty well for itself.

I am not sure exactly what I am doing on such a list, but in characteristic fashion I don't let details like that keep me from being a blabbermouth. :-)

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
     Tim O'Reilly on who is ethical - (ben_tilly) - (6)
         I think he needs to elaborate. - (Another Scott) - (2)
             Slight disagreement. - (boxley)
             Was that his point? - (static)
         Coercion is wrong. - (imric)
         Re: Tim O'Reilly on who is ethical - (dshellman) - (1)
             You are welcome for the link - (ben_tilly)

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