Post #53,717
9/28/02 11:30:57 AM
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Turks seize 33 pounds of weapons grade uranium.
IIRC, only 15-20 kg (30-40 pounds) is necessary for an implosion device. [link|http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=574&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20020928/wl_nm/turkey_uranium_dc|Yahoo news]. Turkish paramilitary police have seized more than 33 pounds of weapons-grade uranium and detained two men accused of smuggling the material, the state-run Anatolian news agency said on Saturday.
Officers in the southern province of Sanliurfa, which borders Syria and is about 155 miles from the Iraqi border, were acting on a tip-off when they stopped a taxi cab and discovered the uranium in a lead container hidden beneath the vehicle's seat, the agency said.
[...]
Authorities believe the uranium came from an east European country and has a value of about $5 million, Anatolian said.
It was not immediately clear when the operation was carried out. Anatolian only gave the first names of the suspects, which appeared to be Turkish.
Smugglers use Turkey's porous eastern border to import drugs, and hundreds of thousands of migrants each year illegally cross the rugged frontier on their way to more affluent European Union ( news - web sites) nations.
Police in Istanbul seized more than 2.2 pounds of weapons-grade uranium last November that had been smuggled into Turkey from an east European nation. The smugglers were detained after attempting to sell the material to undercover police officers. Sheesh! Cheers, Scott.
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Post #53,722
9/28/02 12:02:26 PM
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Probably being smuggled into Israel non of the arabs want it
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
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Post #53,723
9/28/02 12:08:24 PM
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Obvious question
What fraction of the smuggled uranium do you think they capture?
Cheers, Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
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Post #53,730
9/28/02 1:31:56 PM
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No way of knowing. That's part of what makes it scary. :-(
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Post #53,731
9/28/02 1:37:28 PM
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Re: Also scary is ...
if agents are conducting a 'Tonkin Gulf' style set-up to justify Iraq invasion
Cheers
Doug
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Post #53,825
9/29/02 11:52:45 AM
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That's Even More Scary
-drl
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Post #53,826
9/29/02 11:54:06 AM
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..but..
..just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out there!
-drl
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Post #53,734
9/28/02 2:16:50 PM
9/28/02 2:24:57 PM
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Cylinder says "Made in W. Germany"
in a blowup of the photo on [link|http://www.drudgereport.com|Drudge]. I can't make out the other text. It seems rather curious. 1) Why would W. Germany need HEU? Did they have reactors than ran on the stuff? 2) Why would it be transported with the identifying information still present? 3) Is the identifying information misinformation? 4) Why is it only on Reuters and not on the AP and elsewhere?
Hmmm.
[edit] - The BBC has nearly the same [link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2286597.stm|story] with a few more details.
Cheers, Scott.
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Post #53,736
9/28/02 2:24:47 PM
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If it was made in Germany...
Then why is that written in English?
Furthermore I find it strange that Germany would be implicated in something like this when they just elected a government with a platform of not supporting war on Iraq. If someone is trying to manufacture evidence, are they trying to kill 2 birds with one stone?
Why do I feel a sudden strong desire for independent verification?
Cheers, Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
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Post #53,741
9/28/02 5:06:33 PM
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What Ben said -
I await the Rush-to-Spin of the current Admin, quite before a full investigation of the entire event could possibly have completed.
Let's see if this appears in Cheney/Rumsfeld propaganda du jour ~ Monday, say ?? See! Another Reason\ufffd we had better --->
F\ufffdhrer befiehl Wir folgen
[The Leader Instructs; We Follow]
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Post #53,769
9/28/02 10:43:55 PM
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it's the defacto trade language
I saw a PBS special a few years back on the history of the English language. One of the things mentioned was that English was often the "language of business" between European countries, even if none of the countries involved natively spoke English.
Darrell Spice, Jr.
[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #53,753
9/28/02 7:52:50 PM
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W?
That makes it a bit old, I'd say. It's been just plain "Germany" since The Wall fell. Umm, no, it's been "Deutsland". My spelling may be a bit off, but that "D" I'm sure about.
Half life is one thing - these go bad by contamination and stuff, too. Container's at least ten years old (if genuine) it's probably pretty nasty by now.
---- United we stand
Divided we dominate the planet without really trying
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Post #53,760
9/28/02 9:09:52 PM
9/29/02 1:07:31 AM
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Yup that does seem strange. But Life/2 not an issue.
If it were tritium, the half-life would be an issue. Tritium's half-life is only 12.33 years, but U235's half-life is 704 M-years. I don't think contamination is much of a problem. U's pretty dense. Surface contamination would be cleaned off during the machining process.
CNN's now saying that it hasn't been determined to be weapons-grade yet...
I get the impression that the cylinder being shown is the 33 pound lump of uranium. Uranium's density is about 19 g/cc, so 15.7 kg would take up 826 cc. If the cylinder is 25 cm/10 in long then it would be about 6.5 cm/2.5 in in diameter. That seems about right to my uncalibrated eye.
The clearest picture of it I've seen is [link|http://www.msnbc.com/news/814321.asp?0si=-|here] on MSNBC. The orange stuff seems to be old celophane tape or something similar. On the right it seems to say something like "PRIMARILY TOURANUON" which makes no sense to me.
It'll be good if/when we have more information about this thing.
[edit](U235's half-life is 704 Myr, not 7.04 Myr as posted originally. Sorry.)
Cheers, Scott. (also, it's Deutschland. :-)
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Post #53,768
9/28/02 10:43:10 PM
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My questions.
#1. The item in the pictures, is that the material or the container?
#2. The item is clearly marked. Can the markings be used to determine its origin (yes, I know it says "made in W. Germany").
#3. Can the markings be used to determine its age?
#4. Can the above information be used to determine WHERE it was stolen from and by who?
I remember stories about missing uranium and such back in the 60's. But I'm not familiar with any recently.
Also, our government (and allies) keep strict track (so they claim) of all uranium/plutonium/etc. If this is from one of those, our FIRST responsibility would be to FIND THAT LEAK and determine how much material has been stolen.
Even old uranium/plutonium can be dangerous. Even if it isn't enough to build a nuke with. Not as flashy, but still dangerous.
Where did that come from?
When did it come from there?
How much more is missing?
Who took it?
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Post #53,770
9/28/02 10:58:25 PM
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a couple of answers ooma
#1. The item in the pictures, is that the material or the container? container otherwise the film would have been damaged
#2. The item is clearly marked. Can the markings be used to determine its origin (yes, I know it says "made in W. Germany"). any lead containment stolen anytime between 1964 + (when we put tac nukes over there)
#3. Can the markings be used to determine its age? yes
#4. Can the above information be used to determine WHERE it was stolen from and by who? no because the container is just that.
Also, our government (and allies) keep strict track (so they claim) of all uranium/plutonium/etc. If this is from one of those, our FIRST responsibility would be to FIND THAT LEAK and determine how much material has been stolen. do you know any quartermasters and what the (obvious) problem is?. thanx, bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
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Post #53,791
9/29/02 6:45:19 AM
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Re: My questions.
First off, the age of the stuff, whether U235 or Pu is irrelevant - half lifes are in the millions of years. As Another Scott pointed out above - only Tritium is of concern there: 12.3 years.
Before the near-bankruptcy, USSR's control was reliably (!?) reported to be quite better than our own. Ex: Rocky Flats, that cesspool of nearby permanent Pu contamination in Colo - had rilly sloppy accounting. Hey! Pantex et al do their stuff for Profit! Imagine a CIEIO, then reread or rewatch [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6305474842/103-8167427-4704617| Silkwood], that almost-documentary film which demonstrates capitalism's concern for workers [Kerr-McGee in that case] - especially those handling perhaps the most insidious substance known: or one of the top five if you include bio.
Unless you're stacking side-by-side - near critical-mass amounts, there's little radiation hazard involved with these materials re transport. It wouldn't fog the film either. Too lazy to look up the energies of the emissions, disintegration rates, etc, - but not a big deal -- as with fission products from reactors, with short half-lives and correspondingly huge emissions.
Dunno either about the W.Germany thing - it's a bit like "Made in China, 453 BC" on an artifact (?) I'd guess that's a shield of some kind because U is too hard to "stamp things" into its surface. Besides, it's pyrophoric = strike two sharp pieces together: just like a flint! with trails of sparks and smoke. Used to do that with DU (depleted U, used around accelerators as shielding..)
But I don't see why shielding's needed except maybe to smuggle and not trip lo-level detectors. U is a grayish metal, usually near-black via immediate oxidation in air - and it is near the densest stuff around (IIRC Osmium a bit denser).
They'll need a mass spectrometer to assess the isotopes present - should already have been done. You could deduce something also from measuring the energy and dpm - but you would get surface mostly, which might be seeded / as a scam (the U shields itself re lo-energy emissions from the central core - another reason the surface radiation is mostly inconsequential in the short term exposure, unless there's so much that fission is occurring at a low rate).
With 2000 Tons 'out there', created during our 45+ years of total panic-madness: ... no one could ever 'prove' it's all accounted for - even if we trusted governments more than we know we can ('t).
What me worry?
Ashton
familiarity breeds contempt. did you know that a Pu sphere of critical mass feels warm to the touch? (*when imploded* that means; if crit mass uncompressed! well you can see no one would ever get to find out! even as a fizzle) - and it's a bit eerie in texture.. Maybe that odd 'feel' is nature's way of saying wordlessy:
You Stupid Fucking Species! are gonna mess up the planet for *all* life, not just your own sociopathic egos !!
Peace.
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Post #53,806
9/29/02 9:47:34 AM
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Ditto. And some more links.
Unless you're stacking side-by-side - near critical-mass amounts, there's little radiation hazard involved with these materials re transport. It wouldn't fog the film either. Too lazy to look up the energies of the emissions, disintegration rates, etc, - but not a big deal -- as with fission products from reactors, with short half-lives and correspondingly huge emissions.
Dunno either about the W.Germany thing - it's a bit like "Made in China, 453 BC" on an artifact (?) I'd guess that's a shield of some kind because U is too hard to "stamp things" into its surface. Besides, it's pyrophoric = strike two sharp pieces together: just like a flint! with trails of sparks and smoke. Used to do that with DU (depleted U, used around accelerators as shielding..)
But I don't see why shielding's needed except maybe to smuggle and not trip lo-level detectors. U is a grayish metal, usually near-black via immediate oxidation in air - and it is near the densest stuff around (IIRC Osmium a bit denser).
I generally agree.
The writing on the thing looks like paint to me. As I calculated earlier, I don't think that the cylinder is anything more than the U in question. Also, as you mention, [link|http://web.ead.anl.gov/uranium/guide/ucompound/propertiesu/alloys.cfm|this ] page says that U oxidizes readily in air, so it would make sense that the material was protected by some type of coating after manufacturing. So the black material may be some type of paint/coating as well. I think the lead mentioned in the news story was simply to try to minimize detection by Geiger counters and the like, and not shown in the picture.
[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2286597.stm|This] BBC story says the previous interception of 1 kg of U was wrapped in newspaper. As you point out, U isn't terribly radioactive as long as too much isn't in one place. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists had a story many years ago about US plutonium processing plants and showed several pictures of people holding "cakes" of Pu using nothing more than cotton gloves to handle it.
[link|http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/gen-comm/info-notices/1983/in83073.html|An NRC document on contamination of leather gloves during handling of U in a melting process.] [link|http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/rup.html#DUMETAL|Lots of info on uranium, including decay products] - it's primarily an alpha and beta emitter.
Just a bit more fuel for the fire. :-)
Cheers, Scott.
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Post #53,832
9/29/02 2:15:42 PM
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Nothing to see here. Move along.
Look over there! Oil!
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Everything's a mystery until you figure out how it works. We are here to go! The nihilists and the liars have buried truth alive in a shallow grave.
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Post #53,854
9/29/02 8:11:43 PM
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Nothing to see here: tiny amount of (some kind of) U
Heard en passant this AM - v. much less than 33 kg! A few hundred grams IIHC. So maybe a lead container was the original 33 kg.
Who knows how this Sky Falling photo-op shall turn out ..?
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Post #53,855
9/29/02 8:18:21 PM
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Yup. 5 oz. Suspects were released too.
[link|http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/29/turkey.uranium/index.html|Turkish uranium suspects released]
-- Chris Altmann
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Post #53,861
9/29/02 9:03:35 PM
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WTF?
The two men arrested with the material were released due to lack of evidence and have since disappeared, Dilek said. Okay, a secret tip leads to the arrest of two men and some radioactive material. Then they are released because there isn't any evidence? Former U.N. weapons inspector David Albright suggested the men could have been trying to swindle potential buyers. But he said investigators should try to determine both the source and the intended purchaser. Hmmmm, that might be a little more difficult now that the men have been released and have disappeared. "If this is real, it is frightening," said a U.S. official familiar with the discussions. "But it is best now that we all look at this with a fair amount of skepticism until we know what it is that they have." I'll agree with this. Which is why I find it extrememly strange that the men were released so quickly.
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Post #53,868
9/29/02 9:42:28 PM
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It is much easier to "explain" what happened when there...
are no pesky culprits to mess things up on the follow-up process, press investigations, etc.
The uranium was obviously on way to Iraq and was surely the last puzzle piece Saddam needed for his first nuclear bomb. :)
Alex
The sun will set without thy assistance. -- The Talmud
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Post #53,919
9/30/02 9:08:03 AM
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How do they manage to miscount by that much?
Does anyone else thinks this smells fishy?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Everything's a mystery until you figure out how it works. We are here to go! The nihilists and the liars have buried truth alive in a shallow grave.
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Post #53,922
9/30/02 9:41:58 AM
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I don't smell anything fishy...
I do smell oil though. :-)
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Post #54,124
9/30/02 10:00:29 PM
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5 oz of zinc, iron, zirconium and manganese seized.
Sheesh. Was the Anatolia News Agency desperate for hits or something? [link|http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-turkey-uranium1001sep30,0,2088259.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines|AP on Newsday] - the URL will change. ANKARA, Turkey -- Atomic energy officials said Monday that a substance seized by police near the Syrian border was not weapons-grade uranium as Turkish officials first reported, according to the Anatolia news agency.
Atomic Energy Institute chief Guler Koksal said the material was harmless, containing zinc, iron, zirconium and manganese.
[...]
The seizure alarmed intelligence agencies around the world when the Turkish police said it weighed 35 pounds last week. On Monday, police said the material weighed only 5 ounces.
The disparity occurred because authorities initially included the weight of the lead container in which the material was placed, police said. Duh. :-/ This still seems very strange. Cheers, Scott.
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