Post #50,912
9/6/02 10:09:43 PM
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What is patriotism?
I am willing to fight and perhaps die for my belief in the constitution of the United Sates of America. I took down my flag after everyone who never gave a thought about the the US before started flying them and questioning those who didnt. Patriotism is not a fad so I hope those who awoke that day feel the same now.
Having said that I realize that folks like my bud up north mike couldnt articulate any idea of the constitution, probably doesnt know who the VP is but put some jamoke on the tube going death to america he is first in line to kick his ass snarling and slashing. I dont like the current tone I hear lately. Facism doesnt take anything more than a willing populace to feel safe and directed. Things that would have freaked out any rightwinger a few years ago are being pushed by them on a willing populace. Starting to get wierd out there. What is the gut feeling impression the rest of you are getting out there?
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html|skill set]
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qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
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Post #50,930
9/6/02 11:22:56 PM
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Re: What is patriotism?
Things that would have freaked out any rightwinger a few years ago are being pushed by them on a willing populace.
The sad thing, many of the right wingers are going along, even supporting plans that are directly opposed to what they claim to believe in.
The problem I see is that too many of them have bought into liking Bush personally. After 8 years of fast talking east coast sleeze they got a president that superfically appears to be a nice guy and superficially seems to support their beliefs. And now they are Bush groupies, they end up ignoring the fact that Bush and Co are pushing plans that would drive them to frenzy if they where being proposed by anybody else.
Too many people that identify themselves by who they follow not what they believe in.
Jay
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Post #50,958
9/7/02 9:11:16 AM
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Re: What is patriotism?
We have no more understanding of the will of the Gods than the Greeks did - so we can only stand in utter bewilderment that a fuckhead like Bush has been placed in the position he's in.
Patriotism is eternal vigilance that such people are disgraced, humiliated, and rooted out like a crumbling tooth.
-drl
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Post #50,935
9/6/02 11:35:35 PM
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An absolute dedication to dissent. It is our duty.
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Post #50,975
9/7/02 11:12:23 AM
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Maybe
I think somewhat more directly, we are an ongoing rebellion against tyranny, and it's counterproductive to wrap it in lofty aspirations.
-drl
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Post #50,957
9/7/02 9:06:01 AM
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Contempt for Chickenhawks and Chickenshits
Read this wonderful page,
[link|http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html|http://www.nhgazett...enhawks.html]
..then ask the same question.
Note: I am a super-patriot, and sometimes I want to puke on the flag then blow my nose on it. Sometimes I get choked up when I see it. Depends on who it flies over. When it flies over astronauts and Marines and free people, it's a thing of grandeur. When it's flown by chickenshits, it's nothing but a gaudy fucking rag.
-drl
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Post #50,968
9/7/02 10:28:37 AM
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amen bro
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Post #50,974
9/7/02 11:10:17 AM
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Personally,
..it's being proud that my Dad is a not-so-distant cousin of Audie Murphy.
-drl
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Post #50,997
9/7/02 8:13:54 PM
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that is one stone cold human Mr Murphy
He not only held his mud during some fiercesome shit he still treated folks like human beings after he was done. I always thought Josey Wales was modelled after him. Hardcore to the bone then treated people decent afterwards.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html|skill set]
[link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/index.html|boxley's home page]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
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Post #51,001
9/7/02 9:06:17 PM
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Saw "To Hell And Back" Recently
..so decided to investigate Mr. Murphy on the net. Turns out his family tree is rooted in the same bunch of Lunsfords from North Carolina as my family. I was pretty stoked to discover that!
[link|http://www.audiemurphy.com/|Great site!]
-drl
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Post #51,016
9/7/02 10:57:52 PM
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I worked with a Trevis Lunsford here in Charlotte, NC
At the time (1995), he was (and probably still is) an digital logic engineer. He transferred to the Dallas, TX before the company folded operations here.
Alex
"Resort is had to ridicule when reason is against us." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Post #51,059
9/8/02 9:19:03 PM
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Cousin Trevis
-heh- don't really know
Murphy's family's path goes through the little town of Suches, Ga. in the mountain foothills about 50 miles N of Atlanta. I was in that town passing a little church with accompanying graveyard across the road - about 100 stones, some quite old (mid 1800s). My buddy had told me about this place he had seen in N. Ga., a small church and graveyard where 4 out of 5 stones were Lunsfords. So I thought this might be it and pulled over quickly - sure enough I see my own name on most of the stones. I left a note on the church door but never heard back. Some of those people were no doubt direct ancestors of Murphy. Eventually they ended up in Texas, around the time of the war. Could be they had nothing to eat, the provisions having been commandeered by Yankees and desperados.
The south is still a real separate country, with its own families and migrations, mostly immigrants from Ireland and Scotland and rough places in England, trying to settle down.
-drl
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Post #51,068
9/8/02 10:13:17 PM
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Yup if you get a chance to visit the asheville region
and go to Santa Claus Land you might find a few celtic holdouts and what the "travellers" do during the off season. Fine folks but canny and to themselves.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html|skill set]
[link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/index.html|boxley's home page]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
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Post #51,096
9/9/02 11:47:27 AM
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14 entries of name in Charlotte phone book.
Alex
Windows NT crashed.
I am the Blue Screen of Death.
No one hears your screams.
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Post #51,098
9/9/02 11:54:36 AM
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Warts, pimples and all...
I have been accused many times of being a slimeball - anti-American; having been an outspoken critic of the US policies since Reagan... That said, there is much to dislike about the way this country conducts bizness internally and externally. It is also our right as US citizens to criticize. Our "right" to criticize and to effect change (vote), separates us from many other countries in the world.
That said, I liken real patriotism to true love. Many people are infatuated and mistake infatuation for love. If you truly love someone or something, you love it in spite of their/its flaws - warts, pimples and all. If you are a patriot, you see the flaws and love the country anyway.
Patriotism (ethos) defies logical thought (logos) as a Socratic tool for contextual thinking, just as love. Thus, many times I have trouble justifying my love for country. I just feel - I feel that I love this place and am glad that I was born here. I have traveled abroad and found the beauty and pride of Europeans. I'm sure many Germans are proud and glad to have been born there.
Having said that, I look forward to a time when (Utopian) we all are proud and glad to have been born on this planet - us human beings... In my "logical" mind I am a human first, then follow all the other subcategories such as American, Hoosier, Presbyterian, etc.
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
As soon as you're born they make you feel small
By giving you no time instead of it all
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all
J. Lennon - Working Class Hero
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Post #51,167
9/9/02 10:14:11 PM
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I am, of course, completely different.
If there is a wart or pimple or blemish, we have the ability to remove it. To correct it.
We can learn from the mistakes of others and from our own mistakes. We don't have to repeat the same errors.
We can be better.
The first "patriots" risked their lives to secure the freedoms we have today. Freedoms they did not have.
They did the best they knew how to to make a country without the warts and pimples that they were familiar with.
A patriot will work to fix the flaws.
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Post #51,171
9/9/02 11:13:57 PM
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But is perfection possible?
While as a coder I believe perfection is possible (the code will do what I want it to do, and only what I want it to do), I'm not sure that is a realistic approach to non-computer things - Government being one of them.
I love our country, warts and all. Certain individuals would have you ignore the blemishes because other countries are worse. I refuse to. There are OUR blemishes - for better, for worse. We can improve (and should certainly try) but perfection is probably impossible and I suspect their will always be blemishes.
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Post #51,213
9/10/02 11:39:17 AM
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Maybe not perfection, but improvement is possible.
While we may never achieve the "perfect" society, we can work towards it. I love our country, warts and all. I don't. I still see it as a work in progress. We've had a great system handed to us. But that system has serious problems. As patriots, it is our duty to address those problems and to leave behind an even better system for the next generation. Of course, this brand of patriotism will never be popular as it involves too much work and too much involvement. We aren't in competition with any other country. Our problems are not less disgusting because other's have worse problems.
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Post #51,241
9/10/02 2:35:14 PM
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I'll answer your "criticism" here...
by saying that I agree with you 100 percent. It is our obligation to future generations to try and make this country "better". If laws become antiquated, we must rewrite them. We need to strive for a "just" society and use our Constitutional freedoms to peaceably assemble, vote, etc... to affect positive change. Where we sometimes get into trouble is that my view of a "just" society may not completely coincide with your view. Justice, like Truth, are concepts and not easily agreed upon. This is where the democracy thang comes in handy.
The price of freedom is eternally vigilance.
What might not have been apparent in my original post was that I love this country, warts and all AND I criticize it in the hopes that some of these warts and all will be removed. If not, I am merely bitching for the sake of bitching. I love my wife despite some of her (my perceived) shortcomings. I am eternally vigilant in trying to point them out to her :-) . Even if she doesn't always agree with me and change, I love her nonetheless. I liken my feelings for her with those to my country. I am aware of its shortcomings, I would like to "improve" it, but I love it nonetheless.
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
As soon as you're born they make you feel small
By giving you no time instead of it all
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all
J. Lennon - Working Class Hero
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Post #51,271
9/10/02 4:33:44 PM
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Screamer = USA's Compound W? (g)
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Post #51,278
9/10/02 5:17:16 PM
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Preparation H...
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
As soon as you're born they make you feel small
By giving you no time instead of it all
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all
J. Lennon - Working Class Hero
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Post #51,345
9/11/02 1:45:31 AM
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9/12
I live near a major cruising place - Highway 100. It is bad enough that it is against the law to pass a checkpoint three times within two hours during prime cruising time.
So last year, 9/12, the yahoos (and I use the term in the strict, original definition, based on the noises they make) were charging up and down 100 holding big flags out the windows of their oversized machines, sending money to the culprits.
I've never been comfortable around ostentateous flag waving. And that sight just turned my stomach.
When the flag is displayed with dignity and grace, that is an excellent thing. And not one I've seen much of in the last year.
Patriotism is a deep and critical relationship. What I've been seeing is a fling with a cheap floozie in red and a couple of other colors.
I've been tempted to answer the "these colors don't run" bumper sticker with "but if you leave cheaply printed versions out it the sun for too long, they fade and look grungy."
----
United we stand
Divided we dominate the planet without really trying
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Post #51,352
9/11/02 5:01:13 AM
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Dignity and grace
Is my flag out front of my garage dignified and graceful?
The lawyers would mostly rather be what they are than get out of the way even if the cost was Hammerfall. - Jerry Pournelle
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Post #51,415
9/11/02 1:59:34 PM
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Is it bigger than your garage?
Has it been there for more than a year?
Do you take it in at night?
Are the colors reasonably non-faded?
Do you make loud yippy noises when you raise it?
Dignity and grace are pretty obvious when observed.
----
United we stand
Divided we dominate the planet without really trying
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Post #51,439
9/11/02 3:55:09 PM
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Re: Is it bigger than your garage? (boggle)
Standard size flag (3x6 or something like that), and except perhaps for putting it out a bit early, never overnight.
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Post #51,462
9/11/02 8:32:55 PM
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Well, there you have it
To be certain, I guess you could ask a local military person or Boy Scout.
But it sounds good to me.
----
United we stand
Divided we dominate the planet without really trying
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