all review at your lesure

Post #49,870 by boxley 8/20/02 12:13:05 AM Reply	all review at your lesure a good description of how we got here, what to do next and descriptions of same [link\|http://members.aol.com/llbarnhart/freedom.htm\| link] agreed thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html\|skill set]
Post #49,943 by Brandioch 8/20/02 4:59:48 PM Reply	I don't agree with all of his points. But he seems to be on the right track with defining his terms and giving examples of such. "Anarchy" doesn't exist for long. "Warlordism" is quickly established. Or, it could be said that "anarchy" always exists. Just that there is the consensual delusion of a "government" at times. A complicated discussion and definately more than a two column exercise. But I like the way he's started. Definitions and examples.
Post #49,953 by Simon_Jester 8/20/02 6:37:31 PM Reply	Ah, Starship Troopers... How can we know whether or not we are free? Do we, like innocent children in Sunday school, sing, "I have freedom yes I know, for my politicians tell me so?" Or do we use the great computer great nature has loaned to us to figure it our for ourselves? Believe it or not, the debate over the nature and merits of freedom is far from concluded. America's forefathers, while wise in many respects, were overly optimistic when they declared, "We hold these truths to be self-evident." The "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" was never evident throughout the thousands of years preceding the American revolution, and today they are not evident throughout most of the world. While I still thing that The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is one of Heinlein's greatest works, his Starship Troopers is a close second. The "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" soliloquy in Starship Troopers is one of the best in my mind. (It's late in the book - don't have it handy, sorry.) But the quotation rips apart the concept that Man has any natural rights at all. Right to life? He asks who has the right to life if they've gone overboard in the ocean - adrift. If people are facing starvation, and cannablism is the only way out, who's right to life is applied? Liberty? Liberty isn't free - it's purchased by the blood of patriots. Happiness - yes, you can be happy, but it's not a right. Stick someone in a cell and they can be happy as they can be counting hairs on a mouse (if they so choose). But I still think The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (Brass Cannon) is a better novel - if for no other reason that it attempts to define the responsibilities (imo) are of a patriot to the state and what the patriot should expect from said state. The key question : What is moral for a group to do that is not moral for an individual to do? Of course, I also like Heinlein's definition of a rational anarchist better, but that's just me.
Post #50,038 by marlowe 8/21/02 12:29:41 PM Reply	Rational anarchism? How the hell do you enforce that? What's gonna stop the other guy from choosing the other kind, and then making all sorts of grief for you? Having a government doesn't fix everything, but it can help. The rule of law, if the laws are more or less just, puts a lower bound on human misery. That'll do until somebody comes up with something better. And no, just telling everybody that they oughta be nice isn't better. It's not even effective. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Everything's a mystery until you figure out how it works. We are here to go!
Post #50,099 by boxley 8/21/02 9:33:53 PM Reply	whackem out if they dont behave early America during the westward expansion in the 1870-1890 was rational anarchism. No law but what community mores were, remember cattle wars, minig wars, logging wars? nesters and sheepherders. The barbed wire wars. In 2002 the water wars, rational anarchism at work, the places it didnt work are now ghost towns mostly. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html\|skill set]
Post #50,112 by wharris2 8/21/02 11:18:48 PM Reply	Still water wars but waged my politicians rather than cattlemen or farmers. The lawyers would mostly rather be what they are than get out of the way even if the cost was Hammerfall. - Jerry Pournelle
Post #50,196 by marlowe 8/22/02 4:31:20 PM Reply	Westward expansion? Are you defending that now, or just being ironic? I suppose it all looked rational from the settlers' point of view, and anarchic from the plains indians' point of view. But if it were ever to come to a vote, the settlers would have prevailed. (My advice to those born into minority groups: insisting on racial identity guarantees you'll get outvoted on every single issue. Race pride is just another term for divide and be conquered. Unless you're in the majority. Then it's racism or something. Actually, it's always racism or something, no matter what you call it. But let's not go into that.) As for the outlaw gangs, I don't suppose they thought about it much. And when the sherriff showed up, the townsfolk rejoiced. Even its proponents saw "rational anarchism" as strictly make do. Didn't the ghost towns have more to do with the silver running out? [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Everything's a mystery until you figure out how it works. We are here to go!
Post #50,241 by boxley 8/22/02 11:40:26 PM Reply	Marlowe. my comment had squat to do with Indians vs cowboys Have you read Mark Twains comments on Virginia City? In the earlies power came from the end of a gun. Suggested reading [link\|http://www.rra.dst.tx.us/c_t/history/bowie/people/BAKER.cfm\|link] [link\|http://www.twainquotes.com/teindex.html\|Twain] [link\|http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/9755/NMLincolnCountyWar.html\| link] Law was mostly self imposed by local figures without resort to a central government or against a central government in the case of texian independance. If you fell that anarchism is wrong please sign up on the list of folks that wish to return texas to the mexicans. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html\|skill set]
Post #50,276 by Brandioch 8/23/02 11:03:10 AM Reply	Isn't that "warlordism"? Law was mostly self imposed by local figures without resort to a central government or against a central government in the case of texian independance. That sounds like the definition of warlordism to me.
Post #50,286 by boxley 8/23/02 12:00:53 PM Reply	not warlordism at all rational anarchy Warlordism is feudal in nature with all power invested in a leader. The western communities that formed in the territories were locally chartered by mutual agreement. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html\|skill set]
Post #50,294 by marlowe 8/23/02 1:10:42 PM Reply	Taylor beat Santa Anna fair and square. That's why we got Texas et al. Houston did his part, but the final victory against the chaos that was Mexico was secured by non-anarchists. Come to think of it, Mexican government at that time could be described as anarchy, punctuated by fits of brutal repression. Exactly what you get without a strong government. Rule of anything and everything except law. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Everything's a mystery until you figure out how it works. We are here to go!
Post #50,302 by boxley 8/23/02 1:49:16 PM Reply	what history books are you reading? By treaty and conquest Texas was owned and operated by Spain. (you know, the european country next to portugal, south of france.) When did the US declare war on spain and attack spanish troops in texas? Where is the congressional declaration of war? Why was Burr tried for treason for attempting the same thing? It was anarchists who were determined to live under their own rules. Not American fscking lawyers attacking the mexicans with writs of appropriation. Sometimes your densian thought processes are a wonder to behold. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html\|skill set]

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