He's just itching for a fight

Post #48,838 by drewk 8/9/02 2:15:32 PM 8/9/02 2:19:30 PM Reply	He's just itching for a fight This would not stop the US treating its Constitution as the only true source of wisdom or framing their discussions in terms that draw only from the US political and economic tradition. But if they decide to run their part of the Net according to the principles laid down two hundred and fifty years ago by a bunch of renegade merchants and rebellious slave owners they would not be able to force the rest of us to follow suit. And as soon as he demonstrates another system that has worked nearly as well, nearly as long, then he can argue that it's writers' business activities or slaveholding contributed to its failings. He doesn't help his argument with blatant trolling like that. === Part 2: An important factor in Europe's favour is that we retain a belief that governments are a good thing, that political control is both necessary and desirable, and that laws serve the people. These beliefs are now lacking in the United States, rendering it incapable of acting to create any sort of civic space online or allowing its government to intervene effectively to regulate the Net. [Emphasis added] What does he mean "now lacking"? Lack of belief in the necessity of government control is only the foundation of the country! This guy doesn't realize how out of touch he is with the U.S. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus] Edited by drewk Aug. 9, 2002, 02:19:30 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #48,846 by Silverlock 8/9/02 4:03:16 PM Reply	By what criteria? And as soon as he demonstrates another system that has worked nearly as well, nearly as long, then he can argue that it's writers' business activities or slaveholding contributed to its failings. He doesn't help his argument with blatant trolling like that. "...worked nearly as well" What satisfies that condition? Longevity? see below. "...nearly as long" Roman Empire. Persian. Egyptian. Chinese, etc. etc. Take your pick. (if "longer" satisfies the condition) Re-elect Gore in 2004
Post #48,855 by drewk 8/9/02 5:19:45 PM Reply	The ones they used ;) Seriously, though, I make a distinction between the goal of those who wrote the constitution and the specific methods they articulated. The goal was to safeguard the rights of the goverened against the power of the government. Everything they specified was an attempt to achieve that goal. Representative democracy (OK, a republic) was simply the best moethod they could imagine for achieving the goal. I happen to share that goal. So any actual or possible political system has to be judged in terms of how well it protects the rights of the governed. Does the current system sometimes err on the side of allowing people to do things that may not be in the public interest? Absolutely. Does this allow some individuals to intentinally "work" the system to their own ends? Sure. But every attempt to restrict potential abuses gives more actual power to the government. Power they show a decided reluctance to give back. All things considered, I'd prefer to continue erring on the side of individual freedoms than government controls. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #48,894 by Silverlock 8/9/02 10:15:44 PM Reply	I'm going to play D. A. Let me first simplify. You are saying that the goal of our founders was to protect those without power from the powerfull. I present this science fiction response- SETI bears fruit. The news is not good. The only extraterristral race ever discovered is found to be xenophobic beyond even our standards. We can expect an attack at any time. Should we allow the luxury of personal freedoms if they conflict with the defense effort? Do we continue the support of nonproductive citizens? (This would have to include the retired.) Does the separation of church and state really matter? Wouldn't a fascist type government be more suited to dealing with this? If you agree, then the best government is obviously the one that best deals with outside threats to it's people, not the one that coddles it's citizens. Re-elect Gore in 2004
Post #48,913 by Ashton 8/10/02 3:50:01 AM Reply	Turn it around. Not knowing what SETI might find (as - today) Best government would be that which fosters a social behaviour such that - were we to encounter actually civilized life, for the first time anywhere: Our behaviour would not tend to aggravate THEM into dealing with US (the way we currently deal with each other, always after.. we invent 'differences' to rationalize our next bestial actions). Simple(r) ? :-\ufffd
Post #48,994 by cwbrenn 8/11/02 1:56:05 PM Reply	"Coddles"? Hmmm. People who say "it's better to think about security and stability than comfort" really mean "better to think about MY security and MY stability than YOUR comfort." "We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
Post #48,861 by tuberculosis 8/9/02 6:12:58 PM Reply	System working? I had dinner with a new friend recently - he's English with a French family. Lives in Paris, speaks at least 3 languages fluently and works in cross culture trademark licensing. His take on the collapse of the dot coms and subsequent revelations of cooked books in our investment system is that it will have hugely negative world wide impact. From the rest of the world's perspective, the US has long been a role model for the way things ought to be done. Only the US has recently blown its credibility. Now the foreigners are saying "but see - they have to cheat too". Previously we were the example that playing fair was the way to win big. We've lost our credibility as leaders and that's going to be very hard to win back. I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration. Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
Post #48,895 by Silverlock 8/9/02 10:21:16 PM Reply	Can I quote you? A succinct description of foriegn attitudes. I'd like to submit your comment to Mediawhoresonline.com, they could post it in a larger community. Re-elect Gore in 2004
Post #48,921 by tuberculosis 8/10/02 10:52:50 AM Reply	Sure Whatever you like. I hadn't realized that the US was such a role model for the rest of the world. It was sort of an A-ha moment for me. I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration. Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
Post #48,889 by wharris2 8/9/02 9:10:06 PM Reply	Belief that governments are a good thing? Some of us libertarian-leaning conservatives view government control as a quite major source of many ills in U.S. society. The DMCA, for instance - government control at its worst. The lawyers would mostly rather be what they are than get out of the way even if the cost was Hammerfall. - Jerry Pournelle

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