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New Two quick questions for you
#1 Is any other country doing this to their consumers? Shutting off analog TV in favor of digital TV? Maybe those of you in other countries can tell us what your country is doing about it?

#2 Why will they have to drop off the analog signal? Why can't they do a dual-band like they did for VHF/UHF?

This is not crying wolf, this is serious. It is really going to sock it to the poor who will not be able to afford the upgrade. A $1600USD TV set is beyond their affordability, heck they have used cars that cost less than that. Of course the price may go down in a few years for a digital TV, but how much? Even $500USD is too much for those who could only afford one of those $129USD 19 inch Color TV sets in the Analog variety and cannot afford a Cable TV service or don't have Cable TV in their area. Heck the $60USD a month that the Cable TV service wants is too darn much, that is Basic and Extended, Basic is just $30USD by itself. No HBO or Showtime there, costs an extra $20USD a month.

[link|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]
New Two answers
1) Short answer - Yes. Plus, it's been done before.

Long answer - I found [link|http://www.ebu.ch/trev_275-editorial.html|this] which has
The prospect of digital TV has led various Governments and regulators to suggest dates by which the existing analogue TV services might be withdrawn. For example, in the USA, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) has announced that all analogue TV services will be switched off in 2006. Similar proposals have been made in Germany (2007), Italy (2008) and Spain (2010), whilst the UK is considering a "10 to 15 year timeframe".
Britain used a B&W standard called [link|http://www.vintage-radio.com/405alive/|405-Line](other European countries used varients such as 441-Line). The European color standard, PAL, which replaced 405/441 was not backward compatible with it. They did a dual-signal transition period just like we're doing now with NTSC/HDTV.

2) Unlike the addition of UHF, NTSC/HDTV would require broadcasters to transmit 2 separate signals instead of one. That costs a lot of money.

That $1600 set is still a projection set, which go for more than direct view sets. HDTVs have been out for less than 4 years. A starting price drop from $8000 to $1600 is phenominal. Given that the end of analog is over 4 years away, I find it hard to accept that TV prices will be "too much for the poor".

On top of that, "the poor" won't have to buy new sets. All they'll need is an HDTV tuner. HDTV tuners can downgrade the picture to a 4:3 480i signal for older sets. Those tuners have already dropped to the $300-$400 price range. By the time analog signals are gone in 2007, those HDTV tuners will be dirt cheap due to mass production and economy of scale.

I'd be shocked if you couldn't buy an HDTV tuner for $50 by 2007. If starting today, you set aside a single dollar a month, you'll have more than enough to cover it. I've seen a lot of "poor" scraping up enough change together to buy a $1 lottery ticket each and every week, so I find it hard to believe they'd not be able to do that. This is why I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Darrell Spice, Jr.

[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

New Yep, they're doing it here too.
The sky isn't falling, in fact most people are either ignorant of it or indifferent to it. The set-top-box uptake has been so slow, but that's because the World's Biggest Luddite, Senator Alston, has hummed and ha'd and basically can't decide how digital broadcasting should be done. I guess there won't be much take-up until there's a clear plan. Set-top boxes are I think from AU$500 - $800 currently. There are only two or three on the market, apparently that'll be changing soon. Once more boxes are introduced, competition will ensure they get cheaper. I think the plan is to switch off analogue signals in 2007 or so.
And apart from all that, digital TV really does look *pretty*!
John. Busy lad.
Expand Edited by Meerkat Aug. 9, 2002, 09:04:39 PM EDT
New As John said, they're doing it Down Unda.
It's basically a war between the big broadcasters, who want to transmit anyway they can to make the most money and get the most eyes, and the government who can't quite ignore the fact (even though they are trying) that they are supposed to look out for their constituents. Analogue TV is supposed to be switched off about 2006 here. There is still some uncertainty as to whether that will happen because take up of digital has been much slower than expected.

Digital TV is a godsend if you're in a ghosty area or merely have poor reception, but then so is cable (both major cable providers in Au must redistribute the free-to-air channels). And signal boosters solve a lot of ghost and reception problems, too. At the moment, digital TV gives you multi-channel audio and widescreen which means they'll get currently generally get only the enthusiasts and early adopters. (And I discovered a few days ago some friends who intensely dislike the fact that widescreen DVDs force their 4:3 TVs to show the content letterboxed.)

Wade.

"Ah. One of the difficult questions."

New I didn't know you changed your name to Pollyanna
By the time analog signals are gone in 2007, those HDTV tuners will be dirt cheap due to mass production and economy of scale.


Or...

the Industry[tm] will have discovered (who am I crappin?...have ALREADY discovered) that they now have a captive audience and will have the perfect excuse to gouge. This is America after all....


And on another note:
Unlike the addition of UHF, NTSC/HDTV would require broadcasters to transmit 2 separate signals instead of one. That costs a lot of money.

Puh-LEEEZE!

Most, if not all, broadcasters are already broadcasting both signals. In the Chicagoland area, the 5 nets are all HDTV-compliant. Furthermore, the signal strength needed to transmit digital signals are several orders of magnitude lower; A 100-Watt signal from Milwaukee, multiplexed on the host TV station's standard carrier, was used to demonstrate Zenith's HDTV format during an early demonstration. Zenith's receiver was in Melrose Park (IIRC), some 80 miles to the south. No static, no distortion. Don't apologize for the media moguls, their having to add a 150 watt transmitter and a dipole for digital TV pales in comparison to their marketing budget for a single month!

(Besides...It doesn't become you to be an apologist for MegaCorps, Inc....)
jb4
"About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. "
-- Edsger W.Dijkstra (1930 - 2002)
(I wish more managers knew that...)
New Agreed and the consumer has no choice in the matter
it will go digital, and they either will have to buy a digital converter, get cable, or buy a Digital ready TV set.

You are also correct, what will stop them from price gouging?

[link|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]
New Sure they do
they have the choice to not consume.

Darrell Spice, Jr.

[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

New Pollyanna?
I have vague recollections of the reference but don't remember enough to get your intent.

the Industry[tm] will have discovered (who am I crappin?...have ALREADY discovered) that they now have a captive audience and will have the perfect excuse to gouge. This is America after all....

Unlike the RIAA with their $20 CDs, the electronics industry has competition. People are used to, and expect, the price of electronics to drop.


(Besides...It doesn't become you to be an apologist for MegaCorps, Inc....)

Um, right... I gather a better analogy would be expecting Intuit to maintain a current DOS version of TurboTax. Standards changed. At some point it's no longer worth maintaining old standards. Deal with it.

Darrell Spice, Jr.

[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Expand Edited by SpiceWare Aug. 12, 2002, 12:13:38 PM EDT
New Agree on competition in electronics.
As long as there are Phillips, Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Sharp, Aiwa, Hitachi, etc. and there is no consolidation of these we'll be OK.

Sure, the early adopters pay "through the nose" and don't get much choice. But they also get to establish what such products will for the masses. After the basic product specs become common, competition get serious and prices drop precipitously.

Hey, I remember buying a 25" color TV in 1967 for just under $600. That was close to month's after tax pay for a young engineer. I was by no means an early adopter.

So, if it looks expensive, just wait!
Alex

"Television: chewing gum for the eyes." -- Frank Lloyd Wright
New Deal with THIS...
At some point it's no longer worth maintaining old standards. Deal with it.


Besides the obvious allegory to Micros~1's marketing strategy ("We're gonna change [Windows | Office file formats | Interface look-and-feel | Licensing fees | etc | etc | etc...]. Deal with it."), your oh-so-smug analogy breaks down because I can still run DOS TurboTax on a DOS machine if I want to. How do I run my NTSC TV sets (in which I DO have a significant investment) when there is no signal? Oh, I can buy a converter box for each? OK, how much? Shit, that's as much as I have invested in my entire TV collection!

"Too bad, sucker...Deal with it!"

Yeah...blow me very much!
jb4
"About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. "
-- Edsger W.Dijkstra (1930 - 2002)
(I wish more managers knew that...)
New Really?
I can still run DOS TurboTax on a DOS machine if I want to
I'm sure you could run it, but the tax information in the old version isn't current. I couldn't find anything on Intuit's site that said they have updates for the DOS version which is why I used them as an analogy.

Anyway, the reason there won't be 2 signals broacast is this(quoted from [link|http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/08/scitech/pcanswer/main518090.shtml|here])
The FCC's goal is to eventually have all consumers watching digital TV so that the existing analog TV spectrum can be returned back to the government for re-allocation for other purposes.

How do I run my NTSC TV sets (in which I DO have a significant investment) when there is no signal? Oh, I can buy a converter box for each? OK, how much? Shit, that's as much as I have invested in my entire TV collection!

Yep, you buy a converter box. Sure, the converters are expensive now, but that's why there is a transition going on. By the time the NTSC signal is gone they won't be in the $300+ range. [link|http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/08/scitech/pcanswer/main518090.shtml|The same article] has this interesting tidbit - citing a study from Arthur D. Little that says that the retail price of such tuners, by 2006 will be only about $16. If you (or Orion) are too hardup for that, give me a call and I'll pick one up for you.

This whole topic appears to me as yet another "they're out to screw me" topic by Orion. However, in this instance, they're not. If they were truly out to get him, they'd have flipped off the old signal immediately instead of having the transition period.

Darrell Spice, Jr.

[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

New Flipping off the signal w/o warning...
...would have gotten them sued! (You know, that irksome "operating in the public trust" thing that the FCC and the networks/radio monopolies are trying so hard to get themselves rid of).

The same article has this interesting tidbit - citing a study from Arthur D. Little that says that the retail price of such tuners, by 2006 will be only about $16.


I hope you're right. However, I keep remembering such similar fairy tales as: " Nuclear power will be too cheap to meter", "CDs will permit albums to be sold for less than $1 each", and "I won't come in your mouth". Your [link|http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=Pollyanna|Pollyanna] attitude is is direct conflict with the unmitigated greed of Corporate America (sieg Heil!).

Yeah, I can afford it. I just don't want to have to afford it, especially on on their schedule. And while I can't speak for Norm, I can point out that, while the US was the last country to adopt an HDTV standard, they are the first to force-march their market to it. Why is that? Could it be.........
Corporate Greed???
jb4
"About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. "
-- Edsger W.Dijkstra (1930 - 2002)
(I wish more managers knew that...)
New Considering how much they
(the broadcasters and the set makers) are dragging their feet and fighting the FCC, I doubt it's Corporate Greed that's causing the switchover to happen when it does. Government greed yes, corporate greed no. The government is going to relicense the old analog channels and expects to get a lot of fees when they do so. In theory that's supposed to help out the public(maybe pay down the nation debt?); however, I expect the extra income to be sucked up by some new pork project.

Thanx for the reference. All I can say is if it were true(finding the good in everything) then I'd be sing the praises of Microsoft. However in this instance, as an early adopter, I can literally see the benefits of HDTV.

" Nuclear power will be too cheap to meter"
haven't heard this one, though rising costs due to continual construction stoppages(protesters) have caused nuclear power prices to be higher than they would otherwise have been

"CDs will permit albums to be sold for less than $1 each"
The AOL coasters are proof of how cheap CDs are to make, however the RIAA will prevent this from happening as long as they maintain their stranglehold over music.

"I won't come in your mouth"
think you left yourself wide open on this one... :-)

they are the first to force-march their market to it
we weren't first to space, but we were first to the moon. It's really disappointing that it hasn't progressed beyond that.

Darrell Spice, Jr.

[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

New You obviously don't live in ComEd territory!
That ("Nuclear Power will be too cheap to meter") was the siren song used by Commonwealth Edison ("...a UNICOM Company...") to build so many nuke plants in Illinois. Has more of 'em than any other power generating company in the country. Has more of 'em in mothballs than any other power generating company in the country. Has the highest rates of any power company in the country.

You do the math...
jb4
"About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. "
-- Edsger W.Dijkstra (1930 - 2002)
(I wish more managers knew that...)
New did at one time
but I wasn't worried about that stuff then, too young. I was 15 when we moved to Texas.

Darrell Spice, Jr.

[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

New Not greed from broadcasters
but greed from the electronics companies. They want to sell more TV sets, and the best way they can do that is to lobby/force the government to fade out the old analog signal and replace it with a digital signal. Of course the broadcasters are resisting, they don't want to pay for the extra equipment and they feel that the analog signal is good enough. But we are not living in a democracy, but rather a plutocracy, and I am not speaking about Mickey Mouse's dog. If the US Citizens were given a vote on the issue, they would vote it down. But they are not, those Communication Nazis at the FCC are forcing this down the thoats of the US Citizens.

I can imagine a Joe Sickpack in 2007 trying to flip on his analog TV set, and getting nothing but snow. "WTF happened? Hey Mary, did Billy and Suzie futz with the TV set again?" and he bangs on it, checks the dials and controls, and tries to tune in the stations. But nothing happens. Then he calls up his friend Bubba and finds out that Bubba had to buy an adapter to get his TV set working. "WTF? $150 for an adapter to get free TV? When did this happen?"

Meanwhile the evil managers who run the consumer electronics companies are counting their money as Asian Kids who earn 50 cents an hour chuck out the TV sets and Digital Converters and work their 90+ hours in a sweat shop.

[link|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]
New I see no further point in continuing this thread
"nazi's", "evil managers" ...

your so set in your belief that everyone's out to get you that you're not willing to consider that they're not.

Darrell Spice, Jr.

[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

New Answer to #1 is yes. Japan
     Digital TV by 2004, shut off the older ones. - (orion) - (25)
         Yes it will suck if the matter is handled the normal way - - (Ashton)
         BFD - (tuberculosis) - (4)
             BFD indeed:__ for those not living in city-hives. - (Ashton)
             Not exactly - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                 Yeah but converters will be cheap - (tuberculosis)
             Sooner the Better - (deSitter)
         Crying wolf? - (SpiceWare) - (18)
             Two quick questions for you - (orion) - (17)
                 Two answers - (SpiceWare) - (15)
                     Yep, they're doing it here too. - (Meerkat)
                     As John said, they're doing it Down Unda. - (static)
                     I didn't know you changed your name to Pollyanna - (jb4) - (12)
                         Agreed and the consumer has no choice in the matter - (orion) - (1)
                             Sure they do - (SpiceWare)
                         Pollyanna? - (SpiceWare) - (9)
                             Agree on competition in electronics. - (a6l6e6x)
                             Deal with THIS... - (jb4) - (7)
                                 Really? - (SpiceWare) - (6)
                                     Flipping off the signal w/o warning... - (jb4) - (5)
                                         Considering how much they - (SpiceWare) - (4)
                                             You obviously don't live in ComEd territory! - (jb4) - (1)
                                                 did at one time - (SpiceWare)
                                             Not greed from broadcasters - (orion) - (1)
                                                 I see no further point in continuing this thread - (SpiceWare)
                 Answer to #1 is yes. Japan -NT - (n3jja)

YOU DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE THE *real* KNOPPIX INTERPRETER
91 ms