Post #47,584
7/31/02 9:53:15 AM
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Hmmyah... With one or two exceptions, I think[*]
Namely: - Really small kids, doing really dangerous stuff.
Like, say, a beginning-toddler about to touch the hot-hot-hot plate of the stove you're boiling something on. What are you going to do, *explain* to the kid how that can be bad for you, and you might get burnt and hurt real bad, and...? Before you've halfway finished the first sentence, it will have happened already; slapping that hand away is the only way to do it. Yes, slapping, to add some serious negative reinforcement -- shit, kids that age can't be expected to understand verbal communication yet[+], so WTF else is there to do?!?
- Serious disrespect, of the kind that you wouldn't tolerate from *anybody*.
If, for instance, my fiancée's twelve-year-old son called her[$] a whore or a cunt, I bloody well HOPE she'd smack him a stinging slap across the face -- just like I assume she'd do *me*, if I did that. And then I'd tell him, next time he did that, she'd do it again -- and then *I'd* do it too, for good measure (I'm a good deal stronger than her, and he knows that; and I'd make sure he understood I wouldn't hold back (much)). How the Hell else should she treat *anyone* who did that (including -- no, perhaps especially -- me)?
But apart from those, yeah, I reckon physical punishment isn't really necessary. <RANT>Well, those, and kids yelling and throwing tantrums where there's supposed to be silence; like in public libraries, for instance. (Or, if the tantrums are bad enough, pretty much anywhere.) For that, if people don't have the smarts to shut the little fuckers up *immediately*, by whatever means it takes (or preferably, not to fucking bring 'em in the first place)... For that, I sometimes think *anyone* -- i.e, *not* just the brat's parental units -- oughta be allowed to smack the little buggers right into next week.</RANT> Christian R. Conrad
Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971|Andrew Grygus]
[*]: Dunno if it's legal to even *think* that, here in Scandahoovia... Don't tell anybody, OK?
[+]: They really aren't much brighter than cats or dogs, IMO.
[$]: The reason I don't use myself in that example is that "that you wouldn't tolerate from *anybody*" bit -- "dishing it out" as I do, I'm morally obliged to "take it" to the same extent. So, quite simply, no specific insult that I *know* I'd take that seriously comes to mind.
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Post #47,597
7/31/02 11:18:53 AM
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Rant On !
Reminds me of my brother in law in the lobby, hang around area at the native hospital. Some kids were acting out and their mother didnt care. He leans over and said "Go sit down you little shits!" in his dont fsck with me voice. Full stop and dead quiet after that.
thanx,
bill
."Once, in the wilds of Afghanistan, I had to subsist on food and water for several weeks." W.C. Fields
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Post #47,612
7/31/02 12:31:17 PM
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Exceptions
He did draw blood by biting or scratching. My wife and I have had scars on our faces from the scratches, but they go away after a while. Sometimes he acts like a wild animal. Sometimes we spank him, other times we just hold him until he calms down.
You are right about the stove, they see it and want to touch the hot stove, and you have to smack their hand before it touches the stove and burns them. We had to do the same thing for when he went to tease the dog. The dog was getting old, and deicded to snap back at him. My mother's dog bit him once, and our dog almost did a few times. Both dogs are dead now, got too old, got sick, and had to be put to sleep. Also couldn't risk them being around my son, who liked to tease them. Younger dogs may have been better, they have more tolerance. Being in the hospital for a few days with an IV in his arm didn't teach my 3 year old son anything. Both my wife and I had to take off of work to watch after him in the hospital because he liked to wander off and the nurses couldn't be there all the time to monitor him. My employer didn't like that I took off for that. My wife and I took turns watching him. We had to wait for test results, rabies, and other stuff. Three year olds don't have the immune system that adults have, and a dog bite can be serious.
I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
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Post #47,674
7/31/02 9:02:49 PM
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Not those exceptions
Try the beginning toddler, except with a wood stove he just chased a cat behind.
Big arm shoots in front of said toddler along with a very stern, No!
Been there. Done that. Don't think I could have scared the tot more completely with a spanking. Kids that age may not understand the words, but they recognize your tone of voice. And it doesn't take much force to redirect them.
As for serious disrespect, will it improve their respect that you can't come up with any better response than hitting a small child? And if they avoid showing disrespect because you scare them, what happens when they grow up and are no longer frightened of you?
Cheers,
Ben
PS You are engaged? Congrats. When is the wedding?
"Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job."
--Unknown
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Post #47,810
8/2/02 12:53:00 AM
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I think I see something.
Your response suggests that you consider a smacking a poor first choice of discipline. I've been watching how my brother and sister-in-law raise my niece (she's 2 and a bit). They smack, but it is never the first choice of discipline. In fact, it doesn't happen much at all. I've also always seen it only after Paige knows she is being disobedient. That said, my brother and his wife love their daughter very much and she knows it. Smacks are always clearly directed in response to a particular action by her.
Wade.
"Ah. One of the difficult questions."
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Post #47,822
8/2/02 6:49:01 AM
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Kinda right
Physical force is a poor first choice for sure. (Tone of voice, etc.)
A poor second as well. (Timeouts etc.)
A poor n'th as long as reasonable alternatives for escalation exist at step n.
Eventually all discipline comes down to physical force. If nothing else, then force in the form of police officers and jails. However there is no need to be in a hurry to go to those limits, and the use of discipline should not be the primary focus of parenting. (IMHO of course.)
What is funny is how many people can hear and accept that this has been discovered to apply for, say, dogs but then won't accept that it applies to their own children...
Cheers,
Ben
"Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job."
--Unknown
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Post #47,839
8/2/02 10:44:50 AM
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Slogans like, "spare the rod, spoil the child"
don't die any quicker than the other slogans - as defy original thought. I can see how the point about the dog might be grasped, and the point about a child missed. Can't you? Maybe 'empathy' is too loaded a term to describe a frequent lacking.
We are not inherently rational creatures IMhO, especially towards other creatures - I believe that is merely the hobby of a few. Notice how long it has taken to barely imagine.. the intelligence of whales, say. And til quite recently: of 'negroes'. Here anyway.
In many ways, small children are seen as 'negroes' too. (I believe they 'see' lots more than is credited, but lack the language - certainly exceptional ones make this manifest)
Ashton
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Post #47,855
8/2/02 12:56:11 PM
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Difference between a dog and a child
when a dog pees on the rug, you rub its nose into it. You don't do that to a child. Children are also smarter than dogs, well mostly.
I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
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Post #47,865
8/2/02 2:03:50 PM
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ok..
Agreed, you don't rub a kid's nose in it when he pees on your rug. You dunk his head in the toilet :)
-drl
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Post #47,883
8/2/02 5:34:53 PM
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Yes, exactly those exceptions.
Ben objects: Try the beginning toddler, except with a wood stove he just chased a cat behind.
Big arm shoots in front of said toddler along with a very stern, No!
Been there. Done that. Don't think I could have scared the tot more completely with a spanking. Kids that age may not understand the words, but they recognize your tone of voice. And it doesn't take much force to redirect them. "Been there, done that", too -- and Mom tells me the burns didn't go off my arse for *weeks*! I think your method is good for getting across the concept that "the adults don't want you to do that right now" -- but that's not quite the way I meant it. The problem is that "right now" bit; I'm not saying they are all mean sneaky little bastards, but that really small kids just don't *understand* that you mean you want them to avoid the hot stove, not just now that you're around, but *always*. To that end, I still think you need to simply create an association in their mind between hot stoves and pain -- and then it's preferable that it be the, after all much milder and "more beneficial", transient pain of a slap than that of an actual burn. As for serious disrespect, will it improve their respect that you can't come up with any better response than hitting a small child? And if they avoid showing disrespect because you scare them, what happens when they grow up and are no longer frightened of you? Forget the "hitting a small child" bit -- your argumentation there positively *reeks* of "Protect the CHIIILLLDRRREEEENNNNN!!!"... For one thing, I'm not necessarily talking about *small* children; not some four-year-old who's just learnt a new word and is trying it out, but a twelve-year-old (or teenager) who knows very well what he's saying, and is doing it (usually in the heat of anger, sure, but still) with the *knowing intent* to hurt. If that's not to be tolerated from another adult (and trust me, some things I'd slap *you* in the face if you said them to mine), then why should it be from him (or her)? On the contrary, you should be able to expect *more* respect from your kids than from some random stranger, shouldn't you? Also, I'm not advocating any protracted spanking "session" -- just a short, sharp slap, as being the most appropriate *punctuation* to some utterances. (Punctuation is what *ends* an utterance... ;^) Some kinds of speech *do* sting enough that they can only be repaid with another kind of sting; again, as a reminder that "you just *don't do* that". Here, your "big arm and stern voice" just don't work any more -- well, for you and me, maybe. But not for some tiny woman who weighs less, and is shorter than, her fourteen-year-old son. But the shock value -- the "wake-up call effect", much more than any real pain per se -- of a slap may bring the sprog back to his senses. Would *you* respect your wife any less if she slapped *you* if you called her something really nasty -- or would you perhaps actually respect her less if she *didn't*? Personally, I'm leaning toward the latter; and if it's good enough for me, why shouldn't it be for a kid? (For a pre-teen or teen, that is, who knows what he's saying. Again, the exception to this exception is that pre-schooler who's trying out a new word; for him, the stern look and "you do *not* use that word" works, even if you are a tiny Mom.) PS You are engaged? Congrats. When is the wedding? Heh -- I announced that at the watercooler back in February... But thanks for noticing, anyway! ;^) No date set in stone yet, but it'll be sometime next year or, more probably, in 2004. (I am *not* going to leave it totally open-ended, turning into never-never, like last time...) Christian R. Conrad
Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #47,894
8/2/02 7:00:06 PM
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We have very different views of "acceptable"
Christian opinions: Ben objects:Try the beginning toddler, except with a wood stove he just chased a cat behind.
Big arm shoots in front of said toddler along with a very stern, No!
Been there. Done that. Don't think I could have scared the tot more completely with a spanking. Kids that age may not understand the words, but they recognize your tone of voice. And it doesn't take much force to redirect them. "Been there, done that", too -- and Mom tells me the burns didn't go off my arse for *weeks*! I think your method is good for getting across the concept that "the adults don't want you to do that right now" -- but that's not quite the way I meant it. The problem is that "right now" bit; I'm not saying they are all mean sneaky little bastards, but that really small kids just don't *understand* that you mean you want them to avoid the hot stove, not just now that you're around, but *always*. And how, exactly, does hitting change what the kid learns? Both ways the kid has a fast negative experience closely associated with the stove, but without serious injury. You assume that the kid will draw a different conclusion from one negative experience than another. But you offer no evidence behind this assertion, and I have not seen any either. To that end, I still think you need to simply create an association in their mind between hot stoves and pain -- and then it's preferable that it be the, after all much milder and "more beneficial", transient pain of a slap than that of an actual burn. And being frightened out of his wits isn't a negative association? You have a theory that hitting is necessary for learning. Have you tested it? It sure doesn't match my experience. As for serious disrespect, will it improve their respect that you can't come up with any better response than hitting a small child? And if they avoid showing disrespect because you scare them, what happens when they grow up and are no longer frightened of you? Forget the "hitting a small child" bit -- your argumentation there positively *reeks* of "Protect the CHIIILLLDRRREEEENNNNN!!!"...
I call bullshit. A parent is supposed to teach a child. Teaching children - by example - how to show and express displeasure without violence is a very good skill. Why would you not want to do it? I, for one, am glad to have it. For one thing, I'm not necessarily talking about *small* children; not some four-year-old who's just learnt a new word and is trying it out, but a twelve-year-old (or teenager) who knows very well what he's saying, and is doing it (usually in the heat of anger, sure, but still) with the *knowing intent* to hurt. If that's not to be tolerated from another adult (and trust me, some things I'd slap *you* in the face if you said them to mine), then why should it be from him (or her)? On the contrary, you should be able to expect *more* respect from your kids than from some random stranger, shouldn't you? And this is the lesson that we want our kids to learn? If I insulted you, you would slap me in the face. And you cannot think of any other response? Your imagination is really so pathetic that there is no other way you can think of to respond? I pity you. In almost 33 years of life I remember only one occasion where I initiated physical force to make a point. (And I wasn't very effective at it, but that is another story.) Furthermore where I have had a choice, which has included every friendship since I have been an adult and my marriage of 12.5 years, I do not tolerate others using force on me. Period. Also, I'm not advocating any protracted spanking "session" -- just a short, sharp slap, as being the most appropriate *punctuation* to some utterances. (Punctuation is what *ends* an utterance... ;^) Some kinds of speech *do* sting enough that they can only be repaid with another kind of sting; again, as a reminder that "you just *don't do* that". Here, your "big arm and stern voice" just don't work any more -- well, for you and me, maybe. But not for some tiny woman who weighs less, and is shorter than, her fourteen-year-old son. But the shock value -- the "wake-up call effect", much more than any real pain per se -- of a slap may bring the sprog back to his senses. Strangely enough I too was larger than my mother when I was 14. As was my rather independent-minded brother. (Due to an age gap various other siblings were out of the house then.) And strangely enough not once in my recollection did she feel it necessary to attempt to use physical force on her children, yet she was quite ready, willing, and able to let us know exactly what she thought when she got upset. Huh. And somehow she managed to teach us to be rather better behaved than most kids I have seen before or since. Double huh. And somehow my sister managed the same with her kids as well. I think I see a pattern here. Apparently it is possible to get through to kids - even to teenagers - without using force. Would *you* respect your wife any less if she slapped *you* if you called her something really nasty -- or would you perhaps actually respect her less if she *didn't*? Personally, I'm leaning toward the latter; and if it's good enough for me, why shouldn't it be for a kid? (For a pre-teen or teen, that is, who knows what he's saying. Again, the exception to this exception is that pre-schooler who's trying out a new word; for him, the stern look and "you do *not* use that word" works, even if you are a tiny Mom.) Would I respect my wife less? Yes!She has better ways to make sure that I know when she is damned well serious. Hitting is not acceptable for me when good alternatives exist. Children are not a special instance of that. (Change of topics...) PS You are engaged? Congrats. When is the wedding? Heh -- I announced that at the watercooler back in February... But thanks for noticing, anyway! ;^)
I may have heard, but it had (obviously) slipped my mind. Congrats anyways. No date set in stone yet, but it'll be sometime next year or, more probably, in 2004. (I am *not* going to leave it totally open-ended, turning into never-never, like last time...) Not totally open-ended, perhaps. But a lot longer than my engagement was. Before the month is out you will have been engaged longer than we spent going from boyfriend/girlfriend through engaged to a wedding! :-) Cheers, Ben "Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job."
--Unknown
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