Russia lost 20 millions

Post #46,743 by Arkadiy 7/24/02 2:12:51 PM Reply	Russia lost 20 millions out of 180 million population. 20 is the old official number, now they think it was more like 25-30.
Post #46,749 by pwhysall 7/24/02 2:44:40 PM Reply	No doubt. When you see the cenotaphs and memorials that are present in most British towns, each covered in the names of hundreds of men who gave their lives in two world wars, one tends to become a little sensitive to glib statements about "losing two world wars". Russia paid a high price for victory on the Eastern Front. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #46,782 by wharris2 7/24/02 9:50:15 PM Reply	Higher prices Russia (USSR) paid a higher price for Lenin and Stalin than all the wars it has fought, combined. (Some estimates of Stalin's excesses are upwards of 50 million.) Certainly his purges of the armed forces increased their casualties and civilian casualties manyfold. I sympathise with the Russian people, but not with Russia. It sounds cruel, but they deserved Hitler's surprise attack and it was only luck (likely the Italian's incompetance at conquering Greece) that delayed the Germans long enough to keep the Germans out of Moscow. (You can guess this or that, but that's my opinion - the guns were heard in the playing hall of the USSR Chess Championship, still being held for morale reasons despite any danger.) And I shudder at the results of THAT possibility. With Russia conquered, or at least crushed as a fighting power, the Germans could have poured lots of resources into France, Italy, North Africa, or anywhere else they wanted. D-Day certainly would not have occurred. The only real question is whether they would have been able to occupy England. Probably not, given England's command of the seas, but even that was close. The most stupid thing the Germans ever did was declare war on the USA; if they hadn't done that, we'd have concentrated on Japan, Britain would have had less help. Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
Post #46,818 by boxley 7/25/02 10:42:12 AM Reply	Eh? Where did you study history? "I sympathise with the Russian people, but not with Russia. It sounds cruel, but they deserved Hitler's surprise attack and it was only luck (likely the Italian's incompetance at conquering Greece) that delayed the Germans long enough to keep the Germans out of Moscow" Well I dont know where the "deserved" came from, the only reason Hitler attacked east was in the best estimation of the time the Russians were going to go west in the following spring. As for the luck of Moscow, it was not luck. Dumass wanted Steeltown more than Moscow where it would have made more sense. As for defeating the Russians, it couldnt be done. All the sacrificing at st petes, steeltown and moscow was to but time to get heavy industry behind the urals where all the germans to the last man wouldnt have been enough to take and hold the land. No supply lines, train track guage different, crap roads. As it was it took 7-11 soldiers to keep one in the front lines. Not enough people. thanx, bill ."Once, in the wilds of Afghanistan, I had to subsist on food and water for several weeks." W.C. Fields
Post #46,846 by Arkadiy 7/25/02 1:22:27 PM Reply	I don't think so. First, I believe Stalin was preempted by a few weeks. If Hitler had waited a month more, it would have been a Russian blitzkrieg all the way to France. The maps of Germany were already delivered to the troops, not quite distributed tohough. Second, Germans went after Moscow with full force in 1941, and then after Stalin City, with full force, in 1942. In both cases, they were fended off, just barely. Going after Stalingrad made more sence than simple propaganda: it was on the way to Caspian Sea, Russia's only oil source back then (Siberia oil was not developed yet). As to heavy industry - total agreement. By mid-42, it was already at Urals, quite out of reach of Germans. (BTW, I checked the range of American bombers at the end of the war... America _could_ thrash all those plants behind Ural Mountains, at least theoretically, flying from England. That would be something to see.)
Post #46,863 by boxley 7/25/02 3:18:16 PM Reply	Stalingrad Could have been bypassed and mopped up later at lesure. Surround, block the river and keep reinforcements out. It was only the insistance of hitler to "take" the city and stalins order to kruschev not to allow it to be taken that was the downfall of the wermacht and signalled the end of the war for germany. thanx, bill ."Once, in the wilds of Afghanistan, I had to subsist on food and water for several weeks." W.C. Fields
Post #46,876 by Arkadiy 7/25/02 4:33:30 PM Reply	Here, you may be right.

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