Re: Human nature - is there a meaningful answer

Post #45,593 by dmarker2 7/15/02 1:41:51 AM Reply	Re: Human nature - is there a meaningful answer It does trouble me, the bit about simple folk being consumed as collateral in the interests of power & politics. But, I don't have any ready answer that isn't unrealistic or blatantly simplistic. Pray to God that all will come good ? (hmmmmm) Everyone learn to share the world's resources? (some might! but otherwise downright naive) Everyone learn to live together (as for above) Universal education & a program to teach people to be self sufficient (wonderful ideal - so who does it ?) Human reality is that someone/tribe/group/clan, will always want to dominate. When someone dominates, someone else is being dominated. My view is that the best one can hope for is to be among the dominant ones during one's lifetime or as second best, to be protected by the dominant ones in the same period. But, as soon as the dominant power gets a conscience, history of the past 1000s of years shows that that power then gets seen as weak and some other force then has the will to become dominant. Seems to me that warfare is not diminishing, we just keep getting more efficient at it. Wars bacame global in our lifetime. We have made little to no progress toward fighting wars by non lethal means. Fighting wars by proxy was all the rage in the 1960s/1970s/1980s and 1990s. Doug Marker
Post #45,603 by Brandioch 7/15/02 7:46:54 AM Reply	Yes and No. Pray to God that all will come good ? (hmmmmm) Everyone learn to share the world's resources? (some might! but otherwise downright naive) Everyone learn to live together (as for above) Universal education & a program to teach people to be self sufficient (wonderful ideal - so who does it ?) A few problems. #1. There are a limited amount of resources at any given point in time. #2. The US consumes more of these resources, per capita, than any other nation. #3. The US will use military might to maintain the status quo. Human reality is that someone/tribe/group/clan, will always want to dominate. Yep. And at the moment, it is us. When someone dominates, someone else is being dominated. Again, yep. My view is that the best one can hope for is to be among the dominant ones during one's lifetime or as second best, to be protected by the dominant ones in the same period. If you're taking the short-term, self-absorbed viewpoint, that is so. What is best for the individual is not always best for the group (group == world in this instance). Not only that, but it becomes impossible to "justify" our actions in any other form than "I've got mine and I'll kill anyone who tries to take it or stop me from taking more". Now, when viewed in that light, there is no difference between our actions and Osama's actions or Saddam's actions or Stalin's actions. If you're at the top of the food chain, you have to kill to protect your position. If you're not at the top of the food chain, you have to kill to get there. Now, imagine how our international relations would look if they were practiced by individuals in a city. Anarchy. Of the bad kind. The question is, since we are at the top right now, can we change the situation? Can we establish Law as the rule instead of Might? We sort of tried this with the League of Nations (which became the UN), but we didn't want our ability to enforce our will through our might to be restricted. So we didn't give it any power over us. But, as soon as the dominant power gets a conscience, history of the past 1000s of years shows that that power then gets seen as weak and some other force then has the will to become dominant. I don't see that. I see the standard struggle to rise against the clearly defined "oppressor". The rise to the top of the food chain. The fight to stay there. The decline as luxury leads to decadence. And a new culture fights its way to the top. It isn't being perceived as weak that makes a society vulnerable. It is being weaker than the upcoming society. Societies, as with individuals, gain strength by exerting themselves against resistance. If we're basing the global society upon Might Makes Right, then the cycle will continue. There will always be someone struggling against the dominant society and getting stronger because of it. Seems to me that warfare is not diminishing, we just keep getting more efficient at it. It is not diminishing. It is part of the struggle that I refered to. How many people do you know that have spent their entire life in combat zones? We have that now. In several nations. Not in the US. Places where generations have been fighting. Refining themselves through battle. Wars bacame global in our lifetime. Yup. We have made little to no progress toward fighting wars by non lethal means. Nor will we. Until we (the US) are willing to abide by third party arbitration/judgement regarding our dealings with other nations. We are the dominant power and we set the tone for the world. What we do, not what we say or how we justify or rationalize what we do. Instead of channeling the world's resources to support the luxuries we enjoy as individuals, we need to start building a WORKABLE United Nations. Without Justice there is no Peace. The alternative is a future of increasingly destructive terrorist attacks and our eventual decline.
Post #45,605 by dmarker 7/15/02 8:49:27 AM Reply	Re: Yes and No - nice clear cut logic - good points ... This quote ... "The alternative is a future of increasingly destructive terrorist attacks and our eventual decline." Is it an insight or a prediction :-) (I tend to think it is both). **** When I was talking about how a dominant group with a conscience essentially become vulnerable, I was thinking in one aspect of the Moriori peoples - a sad story. [link\|http://history-nz.org/moriori.html\|History of the Moriori] "Similarly to the Maoris, inter tribal warring led to a dangerous decline in the number of the Moriori population, and this was said to have been stopped by the chief Nunuku Whenua, who ordered no more warring to take place so that the population would not become decimated. If a dispute took place, the custom was to cease immediately at the first drawing of blood. In this way, the Moriori became a totally peaceful people. " When the Maoris eventually discovered the Chathams and the Moriori people (they did this while a chiefs son was sailing with British sailors). The chief's son eventually went back to his mainland tribe who than arranged to invade the Chathams and over a period of years systematically slaughtered and enslaved the peaceful Moriori until only a few remained. The Moriori had found a degree of peace and harmony but lost it to others who had no such goodwill. I suspect that this type experience is not uncommon for us humans and unlikely to change. I fear that the Moriori practice for peace is too difficult to ever become universal - there are too many destabilising factors, more so as the worlds population keeps spiralling. Doug
Post #45,623 by Brandioch 7/15/02 10:12:07 AM Reply	Forecast? How about "forecast"? Like with the weather. You see the storm clouds coming, you prepare for rain. :) Yup. Your example is good. That's why we need a world-wide system of law. Having any single nation/tribe/whatever swear off violence will only make them an easy target for violent conquest. And the other tribes were still practicing the struggle-and-get-stronger method of survival.
Post #45,688 by Ashton 7/15/02 5:40:51 PM Reply	Beyond logic, then. The above sequence adequately demonstrates IMhO the validity of the (recent historian's) observation that, The only thing we learn from history is that, we do not learn from history. OR: what is it we call someone who repetitively follows a course of action - yet expects different results This time? That 'we' are deranged may not be so fruitful a conclusion as that - we are, have been - remain thus far immature, incapable of following our best overall plan for continued survival (never mind ideas of Dominance: cf. above). As the Sages have always counselled; as most humans have always ignored - unless and until the ..collective? of humanity somehow realizes.. somehow achieves a more profound level of overall consciousness (?) Our future is precisely as indicated in this excellent / brief summary above. One might say that - any who 'realize' this already, yet smugly watch the predictable replay One More Time: these (we??) are the genuine 'criminals' who deny the species survival from a merely comfortable, reasonably-safe 'present' - when we remain silent, do Not Make Waves\ufffd. Risk nothing. As aforementioned Sages also 'say': We Are responsible for what we (ever manage to dis-cover) Know = the perhaps huge danger of ever inquiring beyond mere overt appearances. (BTW - every 'Sage' indeed expresses This Caveat starkly.. to those 'students' who think.. they Want to Know Stuff \ufffd) Of course too.. we can all just go back to sleep, check out the colors of leather in the new UAV seats.. and get that new DVD. Hey! it ain't in My job description. Ashton ZZzzzzzzzzzz...Huh? Oh..zzzzzzz

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