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New US Economy and the Japanese situation
Every time someone says stocks are the best investment I cringe
Remember when Japan was threatening to become the king of economies
Their stock market was over 30000 (in their own system no direct correlation to DJ) and they were buying the world
Well they've been around 10000 for years with no signs of 'recovery'
Could this happen here? Is it happening here? Or, has it happened here and we just don't know it yet?
The shake out from Enron, etc. will prove what everyone should have known all along
You can't grow at double digit rates forever
For all I know that applies to single digit rates too
I do know what happens when you put too much air into a balloon and the likelihood of re-inflation after the balloon has popped

A



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New My unscientific untutored advice
I had an investing class nearly 20 years ago.

Invest in "real" stuff.

If you buy stocks, buy GE, Proctor and Gamble, and so forth. They may dip and rise with the economy but since they're making tangible stuff they'll always have some value. People will always want washing machines. Who knows if people will want more/less oil, more/less electricity, etc.?

Bonds - municiple bonds, state bonds - never gonna get you the return you'll get on biomed stocks that jump around like crickets, but again you'll probably rarely *lose* money.

Pay attention to "traditional" valuation measurements. Check out some investing books from your library that date from the 1980's. Check out and read books written in the 90's and blacklist anything, everything, and anyone who said to buy any company/person/organization that said/invested/advised investing in the Internet market boom of 1997-2000.
Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
New You have to think about what stocks are based on
The present value of a stock should be based on the money that you expect that stock to make in the future (in divideds etc), discounted back to the present (a dollar next year is only worth however much money I have to put into the bank now to have a dollar next year).

Since most companies tend to grow at a relatively constant rate (and most tend to track the economy), their worth is usually thought to be some multiple of the current earnings of the company, whether or not the company currently returns earnings as dividends or reinvests them in the company. (Reinvestment is fine because it means that there will be even more money whenever company dividend policy changes.) Thus the ratio between the total price of the company and current earnings is a measure of how fast the company will grow.

A common rule of thumb is that most companies tend to grow with the economy. Therefore the P/E of the market as a whole is an estimate of how the economy is expected to do. Long-term the economy tends to grow at a relatively constant rate, and that growth is what makes stocks a good investment. Stocks are literally a way to invest in our economy.

Therefore unless the economy as a whole undergoes a fundamental transformation, you would expect to see the P/E ratio remain fairly constant. But you [link|http://www.lowrisk.com/sp500pe.htm|don't]. And in fact we are still high. (Note that we are also in a recession - both stocks and earnings are way down.) So the fundamental engine of the stock market - our economy - has done well but stock values have done much better. Which suggests that stocks are still overvalued by quite a bit. But long-term if that engine holds up, so will stocks. And as far as I can tell, that engine has kept chugging along pretty well. (Even though having stocks come back to where they should be relative to that fundamental basis is likely to be painful.)

An incidental note. They like to [link|http://lowrisk.com/nasdaq-1929.htm|compare] this market to the stock market of 1929. And it is a reasonable comparison. But what they leave out of that investment picture are the impact of dividends. While the price of the Dow didn't come back for decades, had you bought a portfolio of random stocks at the start of 1929 and continuously reinvested dividends in stocks, by 1935 you were in the black, dipped briefly in 1937, improved from there and from 1944 onwards your compound annual rate of return from the start of your investment never fell below 8.5%. (Statistics quoted from page 290 of How To Buy Stocks.)

In other words it took a heck of a lot less time to recover your money after that disaster than the price figures would show.

Cheers,
Ben
"... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."
--Richard Feynman
New Different problems
As I understand it anyway, the fundamental problems of the Japanese industry and the US industry are different.

A large part of the problem in Japan is centered on their banks. When the stock market was at it's peak in Japan, the banks used all the free money to back or outright buy various investments. Investments which turned out to be very bad, a lot of it went into various land deals in the US. Unfortunatly, the banks where and are unwilling to simply write off that bad debt, so their money is still tied up. This is strangling the Japanese markets because there is little money available for new investments.

The problems in the US is based in problems with accounting and management. But it's a problem of outright fraud, not bad investment practice. Japan's problem is forcing their economy to wade through a swamp to get anywhere, ours is more like walking a mine field.

Jay
New Japan is not the U.S.
Building from the ashes of defeat (with a little help from certain parties interested in a bulwark against Communism), Japan started with all new equipment and factories, and was able to adopt new structures learned mostly from Americans. Combining this with traditional strengths, the country found a "magic formula" that worked wonders under particular economic conditions.

At it's peak, this "magic formula" resulted in great wealth and a scramble for very limited resources within Japan. Prices fed on themselves and rose to unrealistic heights. Acustomed to absurd pricing going ever higher, Japanese business invested very unwisely in overseas real estate and other questionable ventures.

Now the world has changed, that shiny new manufacturing infrastructure is aging and obsolete, the "work till you drop, then go home and die" work ethic is changing. Prosperity has set in and sacrifice is no longer popular. Other countries can easily beat the price or match the quality, or both. Jobs are moving overseas.

Most important, the social structure that made the "magic formula" work so well now holds back all attempts to adapt to new conditions. The U.S and other competitors have replace their manufacturing infrastructure in normal turnover and are now often more modern than Japan.

Innovation is sorely needed because technology moves so fast today copying is becoming increasingly less viable, and foreign companies have learned to be suspicious. Unfortunately, a tradition of innovation and colaboration is lacking. The "Fifth Generation Computer Project", designed to show that Japan really could innovate, was a total failure. The moment a participating company found a possibly marketable idea, they hid it from the others.

When money became tight at home, and new loans became hard to get, cash strapped Japanese enterprises had no choice but to sell off their foreign real estate holdings for cash, often at horrifying discounts. Many Japanese now believe this real estate fiasco was all a deliberate American scam they got sucked into, and books have been written about it.**

Realizing the U.S. has already gone through all this and survived, books on American management theory have been recently popular in Japan (though the current scandals may tarnish that - or, maybe they won't).

As I used to say, "Watch Tokyo real estate prices. When you see them drop, the game is over, and it's not coming back".


**Asians love to blame things on complex conspiracies. Many years ago, after Radio Moscow became too worldly wise to be fun any more, I started listening to Radio Peking. Almost every broadcast had a story of how watchful Communist pesants foiled, at the very last moment, an American plot to subvert the productivity of their vilage. The plots were always so clever, so labarinthine, so diabolically complex and convoluted, and always came so close to improbable success, it made me really proud to be an American just listening to it all.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
Expand Edited by Andrew Grygus July 14, 2002, 03:17:02 PM EDT
New US/Japanese 1929/Today
Some thoughts...

1. The crash of 1929 caused many people to panic, take their money not only out of the stock market, but also out of banks. They took it home and put it in their mattress, in coffee cans, etc. Since the currency was still "gold"-based back then, everyone assumed that the money could be redeemed for gold. People really panicked, jumping out of buildings and such.

2. Our banks are insured by the U.S. government, but we're not on the gold standard anymore. Kind of a double-edged sword. In the oil crisis/recession of 1973/1974 (after we were off the gold standard), inflation soared, the dollar was devalued, and the price of gold soared. My parents bought around 250 and should have sold around $900 an ounce about 1979. Instead they waited 5 more years and sold for about $300 an oz. Gold was as low as $200 an oz, but lately, it's pushing $315.

3. It depends on what you believe is fundamentally causing our recession, whether we are in the same boat as Japan or not. One theory, already explained is that Japanese banks are allowed to keep investments on the books that are huge losses. In the U.S., we write down the losses, liquidate the banks. It can make things really bad in the short term, but it also allows people to buy assets on the cheap and build really great companies. IBM was founded in 1933, the heart of the depression.

4. Another theory, one that I'm starting to buy into is that the abundance of information about markets and competition (and lack of trade secrets being kept, patents enforced, IP right preserved ) means that as soon as something is invented, you have competition. Any opportunity you have to make a "profit" funding further inventions is gone. I think some of this is true in our marketplace today. Competition is so intense that noone makes money and people take stupid risks and price their product below real cost, creating unhealthy products and markets. A recession removes the non-money makers from the market, and ultimately the market is restored to equilibrium. Basically, the Internet is making everyone an expert on everything, allowing people who aren't really qualified to enter the marketplace as your competitors because they can "appear" to be qualified.

5. We decide whether this is a real panic or just a "correction". If we all stop buying, put our money into gold, and leave the stock market for years, then the economy will be depressed a lot longer, than if we all decide to take our lumps, keep our money in the bank, and buy some stocks now that are bargains. We bought some SBC a few days ago.

Glen Austin
     US Economy and the Japanese situation - (andread) - (5)
         My unscientific untutored advice - (wharris2)
         You have to think about what stocks are based on - (ben_tilly)
         Different problems - (JayMehaffey)
         Japan is not the U.S. - (Andrew Grygus)
         US/Japanese 1929/Today - (gdaustin)

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