Just one or two.

Post #45,223 by mhuber 7/11/02 5:23:56 PM Reply	Just one or two. ---- United we stand Divided we dominate the planet without really trying
Post #45,295 by marlowe 7/12/02 12:58:11 PM Reply	Martin Kelley. Richard J. Krejsa. There. I've humored you. That ends that, as far as I'm concerned. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Everything's a mystery until you figure out how it works. If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
Post #45,309 by Brandioch 7/12/02 2:47:19 PM Reply	I've never heard of either of those. Freakin' gutless wonder, you are. You're posting here, opposing a position that no one here holds, that you claim is held by people I've never heard of. Once again, "moral cowardice". The signers of the Declaration of Independence did NOT hide behind anything. I'm not surprised at your cowardice. That's all I ever see from you academic wannabe's. If you had any guts, you'd be doing instead of ranting about fantasies you have about the "bad people" out there. For everyone else.......... Marlowe demands the death of others. But he doesn't even dare name people who he claims oppose those demands. Marlowe demands our troops risk their lives to deliver that death. But he doesn't even dare name people who he claims oppose those demands. Marlowe wants other people to risk their lives to kill still other people so Marlowe can feel "safer". But he doesn't even have the courage to name the "pacifists" who oppose that. I risked my life so people like Marlowe COULD say that.
Post #45,342 by altmann 7/12/02 4:59:03 PM Reply	That which I have not heard of doesn't exist? Or doesn't matter? [link\|http://www.nonviolence.org/personal/martink/\|Martin Kelley] [link\|http://www.hopedance.org/issue32/articles/krejsa.htm\|Richard J. Krejsa] -- Chris Altmann
Post #45,344 by Ashton 7/12/02 5:15:29 PM Reply	So then.. these are the 'raving loonies'? And Marlowe is the oasis of sanity? (And he quotes from "The Stranger" without realizing the irony?) {sigh} A mindset is a terrible thing to waste.
Post #45,349 by altmann 7/12/02 5:31:26 PM Reply	Did you see me call them 'raving loonies'? I happen to agree with at least one of the 2 links I posted. The 'raving' that got to me was in the post I responded to. Who quoted "The Stranger"? Me? You? Marlowe? One of the two I linked to? A mindset is a terrible thing to waste. Yep. Try not to waste it next time ;) -- Chris Altmann
Post #45,357 by Brandioch 7/12/02 5:54:43 PM Reply	Marlowe quoted Dan from "The Stranger". And he quoted another person I don't remember right now.
Post #45,358 by Ashton 7/12/02 6:01:57 PM Reply	Not at all.. I was referring to the standard Marlowe implication re Anyone not in the Human Events Social Registry of Good Muricans who ain't never met a non-Murican they really Liked. [link\|http://www.thestranger.com/current/ex3.html\|Here] was his referenced article by, perhaps appropriately - one Dan Savage. As said - I doubt he sees the irony of the web title and his normal cant. (I meant [link\|http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/1311/camus.html\|This] 'Stranger'. ;-) As to your links of Marlowe's horrible examples - were I needing to choose a babysitter, I know which of (Marlowe + these two) I'd want inculcating subversive ideas about life n'stuff into malleable empty minds. Ashton just another subversive, patiently waiting to have an elected President again. (And.. in time, too. Before WW-III gets funded)
Post #45,441 by altmann 7/13/02 2:16:10 AM Reply	Ah. I get it :) That's what I get for always scrolling past the tops of pages. And I figured you were referring to that 'Stranger'. It piqued my interest enough to go by the bookstore and pick up a copy. -- Chris Altmann
Post #45,450 by Brandioch 7/13/02 3:51:16 AM Reply	Multiple levels. :) Considering what Dan Savage normally writes. [link\|http://www.thestranger.com/current/savage.html\|Savage Love]
Post #45,354 by mhuber 7/12/02 5:44:41 PM Reply	OK, one, maybe two, out of three I'll take your word for it that at some point these guys expressed a harder multiculturalism than "this culture does not have a monopoly on worthwhile ideas". On the sites, I saw a lot on pacifism, not much else. In particular, nothing at all on multiculturalism, nothing to suggest that death-Islam (or real Islam, for that matter) is better than or equal to Christianity or America, no comparisons of cultures - or even critique of our culture. At most, they place the same value on the life of an innocent civilian in Iraq as on an innocent civilian in New York City. Not because the cultures are equivalent, but because a life is a life. But I'll take your word for it that you have more reason to identify these two as nihilistic multiculturalists than the fact that they disagree with you on some things and must therefore disagree with you on everything. From the web sites, I would guess the titles are, essentialy, "none". So I'm guessing the policy impact of their alleged allegiance to nihilistic multiculturalism is zero. Now, the third part of my request: victims. What lives have these two ruined, and by "ruined" I don't mean "made feel bad by expressing a different opinion". I mean things like death, imprisonment, censorship, firing, denial of promotion, bad grades, vandalism, ... I am still not convinced that nihilistic multiculturalism is a serious threat. You gave names (without evidence) but no titles, and no victims. ---- United we stand Divided we dominate the planet without really trying
Post #45,360 by Brandioch 7/12/02 6:09:27 PM Reply	I believe they are the "pacifists". The ones that would rather see "America" over run with terrorists. The ones that are "pro-terrorist" in the same way that the other "pacifists" were "pro-fascism" when they opposed war with Germany in WW2. He provided the "names" because I asked him what "pacifists" there were that held the beliefs he claimed they did. He's named names. But these people do NOT seem to have the beliefs he claimed they did.
Post #45,459 by mhuber 7/13/02 10:32:24 AM Reply	Oops Sorry, wrong thread, wrong demand for specifics... ---- United we stand Divided we dominate the planet without really trying
Post #45,356 by Brandioch 7/12/02 5:52:28 PM Reply	I'm not seeing what Marlowe claims is there. Richard Krejsa says the same thing I do. This should NOT be a military action. Now, if he's saying the SAME thing I'm saying and I am most definately NOT a "pacifist", where does Marlowe come up with his allegations about what these people are saying? Hmmmm?
Post #45,404 by Mike 7/12/02 10:30:19 PM Reply	Brave. Oh yes. That's standard currency masquerading as intelligent debate around here. Puffery and hubris slapped around pitiful attempts at a Johnsonian "I refute it thus!" Deny, deny deny. Deny the people exist. If they exist....deny that they really hold those opinions. If evidence is presented that they do....find a flimsy and unpersuasive problem with the evidence.....and make a quantum leap to the claim to be winning the debate. Its a real shame because this place used to be somewhere where you could observe and enjoy a ton of neuron-firing. What often displaces it now is a strange sort of fetish ego frotterism. A strange and alien world of debate in which your own self-confessed ignorance of something can be your ally ........and is not immediately seized upon by the whole community for the atrocious precedent it represents. Very sad. I commend you for your bravery in pointing out the dishonest when you see it. Time and again here you will get a gauntlet thrown down. One picked up and successfully prosecuted will typically result in your opponent disappearing in a puff of smoke only to return another day with a fresh pair of gloves and fresh set of new challenges. Your greatest "victories" will be summarily dismissed but your smallest "losses" will be feted ad nauseum. What the heck, its better than the national enquirer, even if there aren't any pictures. Oh and its free............ -Mike -- William Shatner's Trousers --
Post #45,445 by Brandioch 7/13/02 3:33:11 AM Reply	Mike supports Marlowe. And approves of Marlowe's "bravery" in posting the names of "pacifists" whom Marlowe has said disagree with Marlowe. You are known by the company you keep.
Post #45,458 by bepatient 7/13/02 10:24:45 AM Reply	Moderate Down Childish You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #45,467 by Brandioch 7/13/02 2:21:19 PM Reply	Sorry, Bill. I forgot to include you in the Marlowe, Mike lovefest. You soooooo brave.
Post #45,476 by bepatient 7/13/02 3:55:03 PM Reply	Just an observation... Sounded a bit too much like "Mikey and Marlowe...sitting in a tree..." Thats all. Your further response wasn't much better. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #45,478 by Brandioch 7/13/02 4:06:51 PM Reply	The problem is. While I do acknowledge you as the expert on behaving like a child.... That does not mean I regard your opinion on whether someone else is behaving childishly as valid. You were included in that statement. You were not referenced. Yet you felt the need to include your opinion of my statement. Rather than your opinion of the content of my statement. Mike was supporting Marlowe for being "brave" and for dealing with people here. Mike was not providing references nor substantiation for Marlowe's claims. Personality over content. You had a problem with that. I am not surprised. I have previously established your pattern of lies and strawmen to "substantiate" your position. Most recently, Christian took you to task for your ignorance of basic debate principles. Yes, you are just like Mike and Marlowe. But I did not see the need to include you in that company (reference my earlier post) as you were not included in the discussion up to that point. Now you have included yourself. You, Marlowe and Mike all share the same characteristics. Have I made that clear enough for you?
Post #45,479 by bepatient 7/13/02 4:09:47 PM Reply	Figures... Mike made an observation that didn't sit well with you. Now you're all huffy about it. You've previously established nothing but your own ego. Go stroke it some more. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #45,484 by Brandioch 7/13/02 4:41:38 PM Reply	This obsession of your's is getting old. Mike made an observation that didn't sit well with you. Whatever. And my observation of his observation did not sit well with YOU. Do you have a point? If you would rather that I had not commented on his comment, then why did you comment on my comment about his comment? Ah, I understand. It's okay when you do it, but when others do it, it's not okay. Like I said, I acknowledge your expertise in acting childishly. You've previously established nothing but your own ego. That is your opinion. I, on the other hand, have references and links which show you completely mis-stating my position, multiple times and even lying about what was posted. Just as you are doing now. Whatever. If you feel the need to defend Mike and Marlowe, that's your problem. Like I've said, you three have the same characteristics. It's understandable that you'd want to defend them. For my part, I've made my point and you have yet to contradict it and this will only result in more right shifted personal attacks. Enjoy yourself. I'm out of here.
Post #45,486 by bepatient 7/13/02 6:19:40 PM Reply	Obsession? I think its pretty funny actually. Now you have me lying about your position too? I didn't even reference it. I must be better than I thought. As to your last line...one can only hope. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]

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