Greg has lost 135 and counting. As I said, if you say his diet won't work, and he has direct evidence that it does, then you look very silly.

Gee, I must look really silly then.

Except I've stated that you can lose weight on just about any diet.

[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=45035|You can lose weight on just about any diet.]

Read that post, again.

It isn't about losing weight. It's about a healthy body.

Now, that diet makes some claims that seem to contradict current knowledge.

Whatever.

You want a controlled study? Start by checking out how many vegans have heart disease.

So, if it isn't the meat or the fat (Atkins diet and your claim) or the vegies that contribute to heart disease, is it just the carbos in our diets?

If not, what then?

Pontificate all you want. But until there are controlled studies showing whether or not his result was a fluke (a result which is, incidentally, predicted in the NY Times article), I won't care.

I'm not asking you to care. And there have been controlled studies. But different studies yield different data. There are enough of them posted on the web.

Now, if you were approaching this from a scientific viewpoint, you'd take the existing info (vegans don't die from heart attacks nearly as much as the rest of the US population)
-and-
combine it with the claims made in that article
-then-
formulate a testable hypothesis.

Namely, that something other than meats, fats and vegies is what causes heart attacks.

Something is causing heart disease to kill so many people.

What is it?

#1. Quote me correctly. What I said was:

The only SAFE way to lose weight is over time.

Not that "vegan is the only safe diet."

Like I said, I expected YOU to be able to read.

#2.

However what is safe? What Greg describes is at least as safe as whatever most people are doing now.

Most people are FAT and out of shape! (In the US). I'm talking about safe ways to lose weight. Not emergency procedures to patch a lifetime of bad habits. The SAFE way to lose weight.

#3.

Drink lots of (sugar-free) water. Only eat when you are hungry. Sounds like it isn't worse, and judging from his and his wife's results it has been very good.

And I pointed out that losing weight is more complex. Not that he wasn't losing weight. But weight loss ALONE is not the metric to judge by.

#4.

Conversely I will accept that a vegan diet probably does not have the same risk of heart problems as a mainstream one does. But it runs a bigger risk of malnutrition.

And to support that, you link to a story that I've quoted this from:

In an interview with a detective, Jan Moorhead said he never knew his son was going to die until his final breath of life, because of his faith in the herbal remedies which he was treating him with.
He said in hindsight there is a possibility he may have done the wrong thing, but he said the doctor at Starship Hospital could also be wrong.

A 6 month old child, sick, and the parents don't take it to the hospital. And you think this makes some kind of point about adults on vegan diets?

#5.

That doesn't mean that it is particularly safe to say, "I will only eat veggies" and proceed to eliminate everything else from your diet.

Again, READ my post before you start putting words in my mouth. I did NOT say that. Here's what I DID say:

You want to see a weight loss program? Plan a WEEK of low fat vegitarian (vegan is better) meals (all meals) with lots of fresh vegies to snack on. No processed sugar or other crap.

Then, while you're eating all that yummy cow food, walk for an hour at lunch and another hour after work.

You'll be down 2 to 4 pounds at the end of the week.

Don't run a bunch of miles. Don't pump iron. Just walk.

So, your objection to my advice was that I didn't specify enough?

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that I wasn't addressing an adult who was aware that he needed to balance his meals.

#6. You don't want to discuss this, fine. Don't.

For my part, I'll be sceptical of anyone who says that his radically new concept is correct.

If carbs are bad, like he says, then it should be EASY to prove that BEFORE proving his diet is better.

Simply take 1,000 vegans (low heart disease) and put them in a control group.

Then, take another 1,000 vegans and have them add more carbs to their diet.

If what he says is true, then the second group will start to get FAT and unhealthy!

That's all it would take.

Instead, there are articles like these about how "the establishment" won't accept "proof" that his diet works because it is 180 degrees from the "established" doctrine.

Fuck that.

If it is so radical, it should be EASY to prove in STEPS.

Step #1. Show that adding carbs to your diet makes you unhealthy.

And so forth.

I'd expect ANYONE who tacks "doctor" onto his name to be able to understand what steps to take to prove his theory.

I'm not seeing that with Atkins.

Again, step #1. Establish that carbs are what make you fat and unhealthy.