I agree

The temperature and heat shedding shedding issues of multiple metals with joins together are absolutely impossible for me to predict. It would take me many years of experience to attempt this type of stuff. This thing would definitely leak.

I could handle it. I'm trying to create a firebox with lots of ventilation. Both from the outdoors and the room.

Limit the outdoor air to allow for a slight intake from the room. That would be fine simply because I'd suck it off the floor and then it would draw the warm air down into people level and remove the cold air.

This is nothing more than a handle connected circular flat piece of metal in a wide pipe. Off the shelf purchase. Put them everywhere. Make them lockable since a flap is always under pressure.

I will already have all the flaps and air flow required because the design of this thing demands them.

So I will have that no matter what and I understand air flow. My next toy is a wind meter to be able to put in the various intake and output flows. They are cheap enough to leave in place so I can alarm if they go wrong.

If I ever grow again I'd put them in the grow room but they are unnecessary for me now.

Do I want to play with the metal?

No.

I am in learning phase right now. It's not even research since I don't have the knowledge to be able to make judgments of what I should research.

When I actually start getting down to implementation I might hit a brick wall so I have to have a fallback. And then another fallback.

I'm not doing this to do it, I'm doing it to achieve a goal and I will always consider alternative paths, especially when safety is involved.

Goal:

Create indoor wood burning firebox as highly efficient as I can and as small as I can and as safe as I can.

Design test and experiment on smallest option possible while also keeping in mind that if I add incremental cost here, I could double output power later.

That's what I'm doing in the shed. It is an old 10x14 or so wooden box. It has a roof I can cut through and walls I can cut through and has windows on two sides and the ceiling, one side window openable and I can play all I want.

The first thing I'll do is an output air flow. A hole with a fan or two or three. Or two or three holes at multiple locations. I'll be able to exhaust that place incrementally or instantly from any direction to any direction.

I already do that with my grow space.

The second would be a patio block pedestal combined with fire board walls. At that point I can actually start playing with something that creates carbon monoxide and fire.

Of course, fire extinguisher and fire blankets really close by. I've practiced throwing them.

Observe, tune, and optimize for as long as I feel like it. Try to design bigger for the shed to start off with but not as big as expected to be able to heat two rooms unless the incremental cost is cheap enough. Tune for maximum output and see if I'm done.

When satisfied, implement larger (if necessary) in the house with a additional air flow to allow for heating two rooms.

Reuse everything possible. Including entire stove and all associated hardware. Plug the holes in the shed.

Allow for doubling the small box reusing the current small box and all heat exchange. Simply add another one on top. The holes should already be there to allow for the previous direct up airflow. Add fire brick and tungsten mesh level.

Allow for the possibility the small box generates enough heat but is not large enough to do it for enough time while sleeping.

Adjust upper box size accordingly to accommodate additional fuel.

Only do this for the top floor where I am active 99% of the time.

I will come up with a rectangular high temp material box such as whatever correct steel is plus all the fire brick needed.

It will have a shelf in the center that may be thick tungsten wire. There will be an area where the high temp flame pushes down and then dissipates slightly and accumulates.

There will be extra shelves at multiple levels to be able to adjust fire height and extra pluggable air flow pipes at multiple levels to be able to adjust air flow as necessary to tune for different scenarios.

That's the low temp stuff other than the tungsten wire shelves. I say low temp because fire brick will be everywhere and then the steel.

The tungsten shelf will rest fire brick which will rest on steel edge shelf.

There will be a tungsten wire shelf at the top holding that layer of fire brick. Same thing for the walls, they will be secure via tungsten or some other high temp material.

There will be no exposed steel close to any high temp jet or in any accumulated fashion.

I need pipes running through that area to pick up that heat. This is nothing more than a straight pipe cut from one side to the other. If they are at an angle up they will naturally move the air and I can add a fan behind them If desired.

The wider the better as long as I can fit multiples in there (as many as I can afford) to be able to test adjusting different air flows from different pipes at different locations In both the lower and upper box. Why waste that upper heat?

The thinner the better as long as it can handle the heat.

Here's where it gets very expensive. Here is where this these parts will wait to be ordered for a bit.

I have to come up with a heat exchange design will withstand that incredible temperature near that jet.

These pipes must be able to withstand the highest temperature possible. They might be tungsten.

These pipes are scientific material. These pipes are not construction material. These pipes have to be special ordered from a science supply company.

So there is no way I will ever be able to weld this. Ever.

I will attempt to make friends with my neighbor. Not really. I will attempt to get my neighbor to cut some holes, join some steel, and join some pipes.

Here's the email I'm currently constructing, I haven't sent it yet:

I was wondering if you might be interested in a project that I'm currently working on.

If you find this interesting but you consider this consultative billable hours, please let me know your rate and if I can afford it we will move forward that way.

I'm attempting to duplicate the design in this YouTube video with minor variations to allow for greater testing and airflow plus controllable heat exchange.

https://youtu.be/nG-61wnsJM8?si=YP0ud9BnItBpzTzl

It requires some welding that I'm going to have a machine shop do if possible but I might end up in a situation where they can't do it. It might require some specialized expertise which you may have. You may be one of the few people who does.

I will be doing this in the back shed. The old one. I might implement it in the house later or never.

By implementing it in the shed, I can assure controllable airflow from all directions via cutting out holes in the walls and and putting fans in them. I'll be able to exhaust incrementally or instantly and assure safety and testability when developing the air exchange. I'll also be able to put It on a patio block pedestal and fireboard all around it in a controlled space in case there's any breakage.

That would be before I cut any holes for intake and exhaust for this thing. There is no time limit on this project. I expect to do nothing on it other than research for the next 3 months and then it might take a couple of years.

The heat exchange pipes will have to be high temp. As high temp as I can get them. Possibly tungsten.

There will need to be holes cut into the steel enclosure. I do not know what type of steel yet but it does not need to be high temp, comparatively, because there will be fire brick lining the box anytime there is a connection between the tungsten and the steel such as a shelf rest. It will line the walls up to the shelf rests so they will never be exposed in that direction.

The specialized high temp pipes will need to be fed through both sides and sealed into the steel sides. In multiple directions at multiple locations at multiple angles. Assume the default angle will be from low to high to allow for default airflow.

Cutting the holes and joining the pipes would be the isolated task that would be yours. Unless you wanted to do the other pieces of the box building.

I would do as much as possible somewhere else so as not to waste your time, but at the same time you would need to direct to make sure I don't have them do something you should be doing.

The fire level will be adjustable up or down by moving the shelf, as well as an additional shelf on the bottom to allow for placement of objects in the flame.

A crucible would be nice.

Based on that, there has to be holes all over the place and pipes all over the place while simultaneously allowing for the movement of the shelf and the fire bricks will be cut as necessary to fit.

Is this something that interests you?

Please let me know.

Thank you very much

------

I wanted a kiln that could melt metal. When I moved in here I started running the electrical lines to be able to do it. 240 volt, lots of Watts. Hardwire option. This was too much electricity to trust with a plug.. And then my contractor abandoned me and this became a way beyond possible project. Everyone else wanted 10 times as much to do this.

I just stumbled across this accidentally and just realized this as I was writing this post. Thank you for being there for merely making me think about it a bit more. I now realize that I was writing that as a lure to him since he is in that particular profession but my subconscious was saying do it do it do it.

I love serendipity.

If I cannot get him to do it, I will attempt to have the machine shop do it. I of course will contact them and make sure they can do the job etc. And I'll make sure all of this before I order any specialized pipes.

I am preferring my neighbor on an assumption. I assume he's better than anyone else because he is a professor in charge of welding and metallurgy at the local community college.

But that might not mean shit. It might be all Ivory Tower.

Maybe the local guys who have their hands dirty really know what they're doing. That machine shop is huge. And clean. It has everything. And they do not allow outside people to touch the equipment.

So I am in the research and design phase and it's all subject to be thrown away, but I think I found the most efficient burn design I've ever seen. Now it's a matter of being able to handle that heat it generates.

And why a wood burning firebox? Because my property is filled with chopped up trees. All waiting to be burned. And when I run out of that I got a big forest around me. I'm not allowed to touch it, even to pull dead wood, but if civilization comes crashing down, this thing would be a cornerstone of my existence.

And I just realized I had a metal melting kiln in it. So now I have to add some type of focusable airflow from multiple points to point at a single spot and then widen it.

This just became a lot more interesting. And it was very interesting before.

This thing could generate steam which would then power a generator. Or a lot of other things. I can quickly distill water through it. I live next to the sea.

If someone wants to dig the ore this thing could smelt at levels that are about three jumps in civilization. Would not be me of course.

And they came up with something that's phenomenal. But it's not difficult to implement. It's controlled air through through hot box. That's it. I do controlled air very well.

The first stage will be created totally outdoors. Because I'll be doing the metal melting furnace to start off with. That's the easy part.

No indoor air flow issues. No indoor safety issues. No fancy pipes. No different metals. I don't care if it has leaky seams on the sides.

It only requires a couple of tungsten mesh trays from the specialized perspective and they will be resting on fire brick.

I can do this in the center of my fire pit in my backyard.

I just started interacting with a different neighbor that I really like and he told me he can weld and is very interested in getting involved so I don't have to deal with the asshole next door neighbor until I get to the specialized pipe phase if ever.

The manufacturer doesn't use a specialized pipes. They use a heat exchange on the exhaust. I could do that, but I wanted to be able to pick up much hotter heat to be able to generate steam so I could run a generator. That's a different phase. I will never get that from the manufacturer.

I might just stop at that point from the perspective of that box for household heat and get distracted in another direction. But I really want this box now that I know what it can do other than heat.

I don't need it for household heat. I want it for household heat. I don't need it for metal melting. But I REALLY want it for metal melting a lot more than I want it for household heat.

And I want it for steam for generating electricity. Maybe I don't need the specialized pipes for that. Maybe I pick up the heat a different way.

I have to start with the heat and go from there. The hotter the better from a starting point for the metal melting but then pipes further away for steam generation. Those steam generation pipes do not need to be that specialized metal. We can do it with cheap crap.

Yes, I could buy the starting point of what I went from someone else but then I'd be doing serious modifications and destroying whatever safety or manufacturing tolerances they have implemented. I want more than what they want to sell me.

They rate this thing on energy produced and they have very specific margins for each level. You want bigger/ hotter? You are going to pay and you will never get the tuning that I'm going for.

I want to apply the research to be able to create something specific that I want that is not available.

Keep in mind I am speaking of this sitting in a trashed house. I have spent the last 2 days gathering and building the tool availability area for me to actually work on my kitchen. Today I'l be tearing down a wall and capping off some electricity and making a lot of dust.

All of the things I'm speaking of are fantasy in the future. Today is reality and today there will be a lot of dust.

Post #445,322 by crazy 1/20/25 1:52:48 PM 1/20/25 1:52:48 PM Reply	I agree The temperature and heat shedding shedding issues of multiple metals with joins together are absolutely impossible for me to predict. It would take me many years of experience to attempt this type of stuff. This thing would definitely leak. I could handle it. I'm trying to create a firebox with lots of ventilation. Both from the outdoors and the room. Limit the outdoor air to allow for a slight intake from the room. That would be fine simply because I'd suck it off the floor and then it would draw the warm air down into people level and remove the cold air. This is nothing more than a handle connected circular flat piece of metal in a wide pipe. Off the shelf purchase. Put them everywhere. Make them lockable since a flap is always under pressure. I will already have all the flaps and air flow required because the design of this thing demands them. So I will have that no matter what and I understand air flow. My next toy is a wind meter to be able to put in the various intake and output flows. They are cheap enough to leave in place so I can alarm if they go wrong. If I ever grow again I'd put them in the grow room but they are unnecessary for me now. Do I want to play with the metal? No. I am in learning phase right now. It's not even research since I don't have the knowledge to be able to make judgments of what I should research. When I actually start getting down to implementation I might hit a brick wall so I have to have a fallback. And then another fallback. I'm not doing this to do it, I'm doing it to achieve a goal and I will always consider alternative paths, especially when safety is involved. Goal: Create indoor wood burning firebox as highly efficient as I can and as small as I can and as safe as I can. Design test and experiment on smallest option possible while also keeping in mind that if I add incremental cost here, I could double output power later. That's what I'm doing in the shed. It is an old 10x14 or so wooden box. It has a roof I can cut through and walls I can cut through and has windows on two sides and the ceiling, one side window openable and I can play all I want. The first thing I'll do is an output air flow. A hole with a fan or two or three. Or two or three holes at multiple locations. I'll be able to exhaust that place incrementally or instantly from any direction to any direction. I already do that with my grow space. The second would be a patio block pedestal combined with fire board walls. At that point I can actually start playing with something that creates carbon monoxide and fire. Of course, fire extinguisher and fire blankets really close by. I've practiced throwing them. Observe, tune, and optimize for as long as I feel like it. Try to design bigger for the shed to start off with but not as big as expected to be able to heat two rooms unless the incremental cost is cheap enough. Tune for maximum output and see if I'm done. When satisfied, implement larger (if necessary) in the house with a additional air flow to allow for heating two rooms. Reuse everything possible. Including entire stove and all associated hardware. Plug the holes in the shed. Allow for doubling the small box reusing the current small box and all heat exchange. Simply add another one on top. The holes should already be there to allow for the previous direct up airflow. Add fire brick and tungsten mesh level. Allow for the possibility the small box generates enough heat but is not large enough to do it for enough time while sleeping. Adjust upper box size accordingly to accommodate additional fuel. Only do this for the top floor where I am active 99% of the time. I will come up with a rectangular high temp material box such as whatever correct steel is plus all the fire brick needed. It will have a shelf in the center that may be thick tungsten wire. There will be an area where the high temp flame pushes down and then dissipates slightly and accumulates. There will be extra shelves at multiple levels to be able to adjust fire height and extra pluggable air flow pipes at multiple levels to be able to adjust air flow as necessary to tune for different scenarios. That's the low temp stuff other than the tungsten wire shelves. I say low temp because fire brick will be everywhere and then the steel. The tungsten shelf will rest fire brick which will rest on steel edge shelf. There will be a tungsten wire shelf at the top holding that layer of fire brick. Same thing for the walls, they will be secure via tungsten or some other high temp material. There will be no exposed steel close to any high temp jet or in any accumulated fashion. I need pipes running through that area to pick up that heat. This is nothing more than a straight pipe cut from one side to the other. If they are at an angle up they will naturally move the air and I can add a fan behind them If desired. The wider the better as long as I can fit multiples in there (as many as I can afford) to be able to test adjusting different air flows from different pipes at different locations In both the lower and upper box. Why waste that upper heat? The thinner the better as long as it can handle the heat. Here's where it gets very expensive. Here is where this these parts will wait to be ordered for a bit. I have to come up with a heat exchange design will withstand that incredible temperature near that jet. These pipes must be able to withstand the highest temperature possible. They might be tungsten. These pipes are scientific material. These pipes are not construction material. These pipes have to be special ordered from a science supply company. So there is no way I will ever be able to weld this. Ever. I will attempt to make friends with my neighbor. Not really. I will attempt to get my neighbor to cut some holes, join some steel, and join some pipes. Here's the email I'm currently constructing, I haven't sent it yet: I was wondering if you might be interested in a project that I'm currently working on. If you find this interesting but you consider this consultative billable hours, please let me know your rate and if I can afford it we will move forward that way. I'm attempting to duplicate the design in this YouTube video with minor variations to allow for greater testing and airflow plus controllable heat exchange. https://youtu.be/nG-61wnsJM8?si=YP0ud9BnItBpzTzl It requires some welding that I'm going to have a machine shop do if possible but I might end up in a situation where they can't do it. It might require some specialized expertise which you may have. You may be one of the few people who does. I will be doing this in the back shed. The old one. I might implement it in the house later or never. By implementing it in the shed, I can assure controllable airflow from all directions via cutting out holes in the walls and and putting fans in them. I'll be able to exhaust incrementally or instantly and assure safety and testability when developing the air exchange. I'll also be able to put It on a patio block pedestal and fireboard all around it in a controlled space in case there's any breakage. That would be before I cut any holes for intake and exhaust for this thing. There is no time limit on this project. I expect to do nothing on it other than research for the next 3 months and then it might take a couple of years. The heat exchange pipes will have to be high temp. As high temp as I can get them. Possibly tungsten. There will need to be holes cut into the steel enclosure. I do not know what type of steel yet but it does not need to be high temp, comparatively, because there will be fire brick lining the box anytime there is a connection between the tungsten and the steel such as a shelf rest. It will line the walls up to the shelf rests so they will never be exposed in that direction. The specialized high temp pipes will need to be fed through both sides and sealed into the steel sides. In multiple directions at multiple locations at multiple angles. Assume the default angle will be from low to high to allow for default airflow. Cutting the holes and joining the pipes would be the isolated task that would be yours. Unless you wanted to do the other pieces of the box building. I would do as much as possible somewhere else so as not to waste your time, but at the same time you would need to direct to make sure I don't have them do something you should be doing. The fire level will be adjustable up or down by moving the shelf, as well as an additional shelf on the bottom to allow for placement of objects in the flame. A crucible would be nice. Based on that, there has to be holes all over the place and pipes all over the place while simultaneously allowing for the movement of the shelf and the fire bricks will be cut as necessary to fit. Is this something that interests you? Please let me know. Thank you very much ------ I wanted a kiln that could melt metal. When I moved in here I started running the electrical lines to be able to do it. 240 volt, lots of Watts. Hardwire option. This was too much electricity to trust with a plug.. And then my contractor abandoned me and this became a way beyond possible project. Everyone else wanted 10 times as much to do this. I just stumbled across this accidentally and just realized this as I was writing this post. Thank you for being there for merely making me think about it a bit more. I now realize that I was writing that as a lure to him since he is in that particular profession but my subconscious was saying do it do it do it. I love serendipity. If I cannot get him to do it, I will attempt to have the machine shop do it. I of course will contact them and make sure they can do the job etc. And I'll make sure all of this before I order any specialized pipes. I am preferring my neighbor on an assumption. I assume he's better than anyone else because he is a professor in charge of welding and metallurgy at the local community college. But that might not mean shit. It might be all Ivory Tower. Maybe the local guys who have their hands dirty really know what they're doing. That machine shop is huge. And clean. It has everything. And they do not allow outside people to touch the equipment. So I am in the research and design phase and it's all subject to be thrown away, but I think I found the most efficient burn design I've ever seen. Now it's a matter of being able to handle that heat it generates. And why a wood burning firebox? Because my property is filled with chopped up trees. All waiting to be burned. And when I run out of that I got a big forest around me. I'm not allowed to touch it, even to pull dead wood, but if civilization comes crashing down, this thing would be a cornerstone of my existence. And I just realized I had a metal melting kiln in it. So now I have to add some type of focusable airflow from multiple points to point at a single spot and then widen it. This just became a lot more interesting. And it was very interesting before. This thing could generate steam which would then power a generator. Or a lot of other things. I can quickly distill water through it. I live next to the sea. If someone wants to dig the ore this thing could smelt at levels that are about three jumps in civilization. Would not be me of course.
Post #445,323 by crazy 1/20/25 2:04:25 PM 1/20/25 2:04:25 PM Reply	Multiple carbon monoxide units, everywhere From different manufacturers. Some on battery and some hardwired.
Post #445,324 by Another Scott 1/20/25 2:42:27 PM 1/20/25 2:42:27 PM Reply	Maybe look into designs like catalytic stoves. https://www.blazeking.com/products/king-classic/ (I don't have one myself.) Good luck, and be careful! Best wishes, Scott.
Post #445,325 by crazy 1/20/25 7:24:26 PM 1/20/25 7:24:26 PM Reply	Nope, I want a bottom jet that can cut steel And melt metal in a crucible. I just found out a friend knows how to weld and is interested in a project. I can use it for a metal melting furnace outdoors without the tubes. Screw heating, I want to melt metal and then use it as a steam generator and something that drives a pump to bring water from the sea up to here and then something to drive the generator to run grow lights to be able to grow indoors. 24x7 food. I found a worthwhile project and someone nearby can help me with and have fun with. This is win win.
Post #445,327 by CRConrad 1/21/25 3:18:13 AM 1/21/25 3:18:13 AM Reply	Hey wait, should that even be your first goal? Goal: Create indoor wood burning firebox as highly efficient as I can and as small as I can and as safe as I can. (Emphasis added -- CRC) Have you already researched whether someone has already created something like that, so you could just buy it ready-made (or "just assemble these bits")? Seems like a big enough project that it would justify rather extensive research, if that leads to a chance of avoiding doing it yourself. -- Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Apparently Still Knows Fucking Everything Mail: Same username as at the top left of this post, at iki.fi
Post #445,328 by crazy 1/21/25 8:12:46 AM 1/21/25 8:12:46 AM Reply	Someone did the research And they came up with something that's phenomenal. But it's not difficult to implement. It's controlled air through through hot box. That's it. I do controlled air very well. The first stage will be created totally outdoors. Because I'll be doing the metal melting furnace to start off with. That's the easy part. No indoor air flow issues. No indoor safety issues. No fancy pipes. No different metals. I don't care if it has leaky seams on the sides. It only requires a couple of tungsten mesh trays from the specialized perspective and they will be resting on fire brick. I can do this in the center of my fire pit in my backyard. I just started interacting with a different neighbor that I really like and he told me he can weld and is very interested in getting involved so I don't have to deal with the asshole next door neighbor until I get to the specialized pipe phase if ever. The manufacturer doesn't use a specialized pipes. They use a heat exchange on the exhaust. I could do that, but I wanted to be able to pick up much hotter heat to be able to generate steam so I could run a generator. That's a different phase. I will never get that from the manufacturer. I might just stop at that point from the perspective of that box for household heat and get distracted in another direction. But I really want this box now that I know what it can do other than heat. I don't need it for household heat. I want it for household heat. I don't need it for metal melting. But I REALLY want it for metal melting a lot more than I want it for household heat. And I want it for steam for generating electricity. Maybe I don't need the specialized pipes for that. Maybe I pick up the heat a different way. I have to start with the heat and go from there. The hotter the better from a starting point for the metal melting but then pipes further away for steam generation. Those steam generation pipes do not need to be that specialized metal. We can do it with cheap crap. Yes, I could buy the starting point of what I went from someone else but then I'd be doing serious modifications and destroying whatever safety or manufacturing tolerances they have implemented. I want more than what they want to sell me. They rate this thing on energy produced and they have very specific margins for each level. You want bigger/ hotter? You are going to pay and you will never get the tuning that I'm going for. I want to apply the research to be able to create something specific that I want that is not available. Keep in mind I am speaking of this sitting in a trashed house. I have spent the last 2 days gathering and building the tool availability area for me to actually work on my kitchen. Today I'l be tearing down a wall and capping off some electricity and making a lot of dust. All of the things I'm speaking of are fantasy in the future. Today is reality and today there will be a lot of dust.
Post #445,330 by CRConrad 1/22/25 5:32:43 AM 1/22/25 5:32:43 AM Reply	Yeah, I only meant "research" in the sense of finding if it were available to buy ready-made.

Welcome to IWETHEY!