Post #444,922
10/22/24 11:18:46 AM
10/22/24 11:34:19 AM
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Hey German speakers!
Especially native German speakers. I'd like an examination of 99 Red balloons in the original German as compared to the offcial English version. German: https://youtu.be/Fpu5a0Bl8eY?si=8aONHgsnu4E9PVFNEnglish: https://youtu.be/hiwgOWo7mDc?si=6CXpc09o3FaEgTz4I was watching some news concerning the drone warfare and I was envisioning a world of trip wires everywhere to be able to catch these things as they're crossing borders. Which made me then think of 99 Red balloons. So I went for a re-listen/watch. I've never seen the German video so I only heard it and I do not understand German. But I know the English one so I could bounce my head. But now we have the subtitles. I don't know how accurate they are, but they seem to match a reasonable pattern. And then I started questioning my memories because they don't match them. Not even closely. Sure, they matched the general song structure. But not the song itself. The German version starts with an intro requesting the audience's attention. It does it very nicely. The English one does not have that. The German one is much simpler. Or it could be the translations. That's why I'd like a German speaker to take a look. There is a portion of the German language describing the people thinking the balloons were UFOs. The reaction was because the people were stupid . That was just generally against the population. The English version has nothing about that. It's all about the war machine. It's all about the other. The people in the audience are not part of the war machine. It seems they treat the audiences vastly different. The English one has a huge amount of rapid word play. The German either doesn't have it or the translations aren't there. I think it's more likely that the German one has it since this is their native language, but at the same time maybe they're playing with English words and having fun with it that they didn't originally. The German one introduces an opposing force. The English one doesn't even have it. The concept of having to deal with the guys over the border doesn't exist in the English one. So anyway, if you have the time and you like the music, please give a take on it.

Edited by crazy
Oct. 22, 2024, 11:34:19 AM EDT
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Post #444,923
10/22/24 12:00:56 PM
10/22/24 12:00:56 PM
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CRC hates music.
And my German isn't good enough to do any sort of in-depth analysis that doesn't involve ChatGPT as well.
Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
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Post #444,940
10/24/24 10:58:32 AM
10/24/24 10:58:32 AM
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Oh, bullpucky.
I have nothing against actual music. I even actively listen to it, sometimes -- just not all the time.
What I hate is muzak. And even more so, the habit of far too many people to drfizzle[1] their brains in music / muzak all the frigging time, to the detriment of their attention to the real world around them. (Also, I strongly suspect drizzling one's brains in something all the time turns any music, however great it was to begin with, into effectively muzak.)
That apparently hit too close to home for some, so they twisted it into "CRC is weird, he hates music".
Oh well, if it helps them cope, I probably can't stop them pretending that was what I said.
[1]: Typo, but so good I'm leaving it in.
--
Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Apparently Still Knows Fucking EverythingMail: Same username as at the top left of this post, at iki.fi
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Post #444,926
10/22/24 7:02:37 PM
10/22/24 7:02:37 PM
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Try this
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Post #444,927
10/22/24 7:35:27 PM
10/22/24 7:35:27 PM
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That's well done.
Thanks for the pointer. crazy - I always took it as an anti-nukes song. Remember it came out in 1983 - the time of the INF negotiations and back-and-forth and protests in Europe. DW.com - 40 years since 99 luftballoons: [...]
Their debut album "Nena," released on January 14, 1983, had included Nena's first hit "Nur geträumt" (Only dreamt) as well as the seemingly naive "99 Luftballons."
However, it quickly became clear in the latter song that Nena was addressing, in her own language and in the language of youth, the warmongers who were keeping the world in suspense at the time: the Soviet Union and the USA. Armed to the teeth with nuclear missiles, the two world powers had not only threatened each other, but could destroy the world with their deadly arsenals.
[ Picture of the German band Nena on stage, with four musicians dressed in 80s clothes surrounding the singer singing into a microphone. ]
All because of 99 balloons
Most people's greatest fear during this highly explosive time in history was that someone might accidentally press the red button and trigger nuclear annihilation. This is exactly what Nena describes in "99 Luftballons" — known in English as "99 Red Balloons." The song imagines a situation where (99 red) balloons show up on both countries' radars as unidentified objects and both sides scramble planes and go on full alert to counteract a perceived nuclear attack.
The situation escalates, all countries get involved, everyone wants war and power — and in the end there is nothing left.
[...] FWIW. Kate Bush's "Breathing" (5:34) from 1980 had a similar feel, but it's much more explicit in telling the story. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #444,930
10/22/24 8:08:09 PM
10/22/24 8:08:09 PM
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Hmm, not how I understood it
Is this interpretation that it was literally balloons showing up on radar, and that triggered the (over)reaction? I always understood that balloons was a metaphor for the missiles going overhead.
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Post #444,977
10/30/24 8:15:10 PM
10/30/24 8:15:10 PM
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Zeitgeist
99 Luftballons came out in January 1983. Ronnie Raygun was getting ever more aggressive (SDI was announced in March,) and in September, KAL 007 was shot down by the Soviets, killing all aboard. I'm not saying Nena had a palantír that allowed them to see the future, but the fear that something stupid would set off the conflagration was real and not limited to the tin foil hatters.
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Post #444,978
10/31/24 2:34:26 AM
10/31/24 2:34:26 AM
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1983 was also the year of Able Archer
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Post #444,979
10/31/24 4:23:51 AM
10/31/24 4:23:51 AM
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Nah, always been quite literal balloons. Balloons that set off the whole thing, trigger the missiles
It's even more explicit in the English lyrics: the very first few lines are about buying the balloons and setting them free to fly. None of that is explicitly mentioned in the original German, but the balloons are consistently talked about as concretely existing objects -- if they weren't, what was there to be taken for UFOs? -- so AFAICT the literal interpretation has always been the way pretty much everyone has interpreted it. The ballons are WHY the missiles are flying overhead, but in the beginning, there were actual balloons.
Side note: They come in "a bag", so there must be a phase of blowing them up in between, but that's not mentioned. And since they're flying, they can't be literal "Luftballons" (Luft = air), but must be helium-filled. That's a bigger operation, though, which would takes away some of the song's intended spirit of casual spur-of-the-moment thing -- "We were just fooling around in a toy shop and letting fly a bunch of balloons at dawn" (weird time for a toy shop to be open, BTW) -- so no wonder it's never mentioned.
Also, BTW: If the balloons were taken for "UFOs aus dem All" -- UFOs from space -- then why the fuck would the nations of Earth start shooting at each other over it? Come to think of it, I may already have questioned this way back forty years ago when the song first became popular; I was an SF fan and a stickler for accuracy even then.
But hey, it's a pop song. The lyrics may not make perfect sense, but in that respect they're at least not much worse than most other pop song lyrics.
--
Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Apparently Still Knows Fucking EverythingMail: Same username as at the top left of this post, at iki.fi
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Post #444,933
10/23/24 12:48:59 PM
10/23/24 12:48:59 PM
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Thanks, perfect
And no, no metaphors, just a straight story. I like being able to see the German words make the rhyming structure which of course are occasionally reversed from English since the structure is different.
But in this case, you can obviously see how the actual content of the story changes. Sometimes a tiny bit and sometimes really big but it was obviously for different audiences at different times. The different times could have been a year or two but that was enough.
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Post #444,939
10/24/24 10:47:42 AM
10/24/24 10:47:42 AM
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OK, sorry for being late to the party... Here goes:
The translation on Drew's linked site ( http://www.inthe80s.com/redger3.shtml) is really rather excellent[1]. Thanks, DrooK! Bending over backwards to find fault, these are the only nitpicks I could come up with, so let's get them out of the way: German | Direct German Translation | Notes on translation |
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Denkst Du vielleicht grad' an mich? | Are you perhaps thinking of me? | "Do you perhaps think of me right now?" |
Und dass sowas von sowas kommt | And that something (like the war) comes from such a thing (the balloons) | "And that such a thing comes from such a thing" |
Hielt man fuer UFOs aus dem All | They thought they were UFOs from space | "Were thought to be" |
'ne Fliegerstaffel hinterher | A flying squad out there | "A squad of fliers" |
Streichholz und Benzinkanister | Matches and petrol cans | Singular, "Match and petrol can" |
Heute zieh ich meine Runden | Today I'm doing my rounds | Present tense, "Today I do my rounds" |
Seh' die Welt in Truemmern liegen | Seeing the world lying in ruins | Present tense, "See the world lying in ruins" |
Hab' 'nen Luftballon gefunden | Found a balloon | Compound past tense, "Have found a balloon" |
The one thing I really liked about the English version are these lines; they're really at least as good as anything in the original: The war machine springs to life Opens up one eager eye Focusing it on the sky Where 99 red balloons go by. But that's about it, I'm afraid. So here's the stuff that really changes the meaning of the lyrics: German | Direct German Translation | English as Sung |
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Hast Du etwas Zeit fuer mich? | Do you have some time for me | You and I in a little toy shop |
Dann singe ich ein Lied fuer Dich | Then I'll sing a song for you | buy a bag of balloons with the money we've got |
The original has nothing about being there at the time -- can't have, because it was a damn century ago! German | Direct German Translation | English as Sung |
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99 Kriegsminister | 99 war ministers | 99 Decision Street |
Streichholz und Benzinkanister | Matches and petrol cans | 99 ministers meet |
Wow, that's a huge cabinet, ninety-nine ministers of various portfolios... The original says nothing about ministers meeting. Naturally, because they're all ministers of war, and the ministers of war of different countries wouldn't meet before declaring war on each other. In the English version, they're apparently all from the same country, and therefore not all ministers of war specifically. German | Direct German Translation | English as Sung |
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99 Jahre Krieg | 99 years of war | 99 dreams I have had |
The translation totally skips the fact that the war went on for ninety-nine years. That's how it can have the singer be there both to start it by irresponsibly releasing apparently unidentifieable flying objects near a military airbase, and after it. In the German original, the start of the war is just recounted by a singer who obviously wasn't there themselves. Makes the English version far less poignant IMO. The originals 99 years really drives home the parallel to the saying "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"[2] -- whereas in the English, it says nothing about how There are no ministers of war any more And No jet planes either Could all have been over in an afternoon, for all we know.
Now, as to your central thesis: There is a portion of the German language describing the people thinking the balloons were UFOs. The reaction was because the people were stupid . That was just generally against the population. The English version has nothing about that. It's all about the war machine. It's all about the other. The people in the audience are not part of the war machine.
It seems they treat the audiences vastly different. Sorry, but I really think you've got that all wrong. Where do you get the idea that she's talking about the audience, or people in general, in the first place? To begin with, in the world of the song, this is a century later: Whoever is listening to this song about how the war started in The Before Days wasn't around then. But more fundamentally, all you're building this idea on is "Hielt man für UFOs aus dem All", "Which people thought were UFOs from space" in the subtitles (or "They thought they were UFOs from space" - inthe80s.com, or "Were thought to be were UFOs from space" - me). Huh??? Who says those people who thought the balloons were UFOs were the general public?!? Would all of them even see the same cluster of balloons, on the horizon in some specific place, at the break of dawn? Of course not. Naah, the "they" who got spooked were that war machine that sprung to life; the chain of command from lowly radar operators up to ministers of war. That was, AFAIK, how it was meant and has always been universally interpreted. Your interpretation is... Certainly idiosyncratic; to the best of my knowledge, unique; and, frankly... IMO, rather bizarre.
Oh, and I hope everybody noticed: The original says nothing about the balloons all being red. As can be seen througohut the video, where she walks around on a field strewn with balloons in all colours. They just needed a single-syllable word to pop in for the original's "Luft", to get the scansion of the English lyrics right.
[1]: It even gets what she rather clearly sings, "Scramble in the summer sky", right; whereas the subtitles on YT have "Scrambling the summer sky". [2]: Whether it was Einstein who came up with it or not, https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/einstein-world-war-iv-sticks-stones/[3]: Which means "air", as most balloons are usually blown up by lung power and thus filled with air. Bit weird for these ones, which would presumably have to have been filled with helium, in order to fly up in the sky and set off the watchful eye of the war machine... But that just simply is what they're called in German. So let's say they're called that because they fly through the air.
--
Christian R. Conrad The Man Who https://forum.iwethey.org/forum/post/438592/">Apparently Still Knows Fucking EverythingMail: Same username as at the top left of this post, at iki.fi
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Post #444,942
10/24/24 11:21:19 AM
10/24/24 11:21:19 AM
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Not the imaginary audience
The real audience. The real audience for the song to start off with. That would be their local language, whatever. German. And then the translated song. The official translation that they chose. For the english and Americanized audience.
Then we had Drew's pointed site which was great. Then we had your nitpicky translation, which I will trust far better than any other, combined with your slightly attacky analysis.
That's okay.
You gave me exactly the response I was hoping for and I appreciate it. You're the guy here who both knows the language and knows the idioms. And the idioms are everything
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Post #444,984
11/1/24 1:14:24 PM
11/1/24 1:14:24 PM
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That 99 years makes a huge difference
The European audience knows about long wars. You guys have history going thousands of years and you've got wars going over hundreds of them. And then they get started again and again.
We in the US have only been here 250 years or so and we are surrounded by ocean, which equates to a moat. Our common history really doesn't start until about 100 years ago. This country was still coalescing until then. And it still is.
The supposed world wars never threatened our borders. We got an attack at Pearl harbor and nothing else. The wars that we were engaged remotely only lasted a few years. Sure, there were horrible during then. But they were short compared to previous historical wars that lasted generations. They were tiny.
So generational war is something that Europeans can be emotionally manipulated with, but it is simply inconceivable to someone on this side of the pond. It makes sense that they went for the immediacy in the translation.
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Post #444,989
11/4/24 4:06:28 AM
11/4/24 4:06:28 AM
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OK, may be, but that's still not the main point.
The point is, who's the "they" in "They thought it the balloons were enemy missiles[1]"? That just CANNOT be "people in general", because how the fuck would the general populace have any theory either way about what they were, when they never saw them in the first place? Only an infinitesimal proportion, or possibly nobody whatsoever, of the population would have happened to actually see them with the naked eye at all.
So the "they" whose taking the balloons for something else the lyrics reference must obviously be the ones whose mistaking them for something actually mattered: Anyone between the radar screen and the launch button, up and down the chain of command.
That's why I still can't quite get my head around your original idea of the lyrics blaming the audience. Just... No, of course not, how the fuck could they and why the fuck would they? (Rhetorical question.)
So no, not all that huge a difference for the overall point of the song, IMO.
___
[1]: Or UFOs from space; whatever. (Not that it makes any sense to start a nuclear war if you thought they were UFOs.)
--
Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Apparently Still Knows Fucking EverythingMail: Same username as at the top left of this post, at iki.fi
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Post #444,992
11/4/24 9:06:32 AM
11/4/24 9:06:32 AM
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Nit, just because I'm feeling salty today
... if you thought they were UFOs. If you thought they were UFOs, they were UFOs.
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Post #445,002
11/5/24 7:46:54 AM
11/5/24 7:46:54 AM
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True. A nit worthy of... Idunno; me?
So I guess I should have included the operative words: "thought they were UFOs from space" -- "UFOs" in the sense of "flying saucers with space aliens".
That sure makes it illogical to start a war among us Earthlings over it.
--
Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Apparently Still Knows Fucking EverythingMail: Same username as at the top left of this post, at iki.fi
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Post #444,994
11/4/24 2:29:14 PM
11/4/24 4:00:51 PM
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This is like arguing with my wife
"They" is me and you and anyone else who has ever listened to the song in their own preferred native language.
This is not a blame issue. This is an interpretation of lyrics issue and who they are targeted towards.
This is not about violins on television. Can I use that idiom with you? This is not an insult, just wondering if I can use that shorthand. It seems our discussions devolve into occasional misunderstandings and I think that's a very good shorthand for what happens.
And really, shouting (Full-Blown Caps) combined with insults combined with sprinkling of curses (I know it's salt and pepper to you and I try not to react, but it's simply not punctuation in my brain, it's emphasis combined with attack), is it all really required? Is the effect desired? Sigh.
I get to choose the main point of this discussion because I was asking questions about interpretation of lyrics. And the lyrics are based on the native language combined with changing the actual meaning occasionally. Changing words and multiple lines. So I wanted to know about how the audiences interpreted that and felt about that. Which I couldn't do without a native speaker.
I get to choose who "they" are because I posted and asked the questions about "them". I get to choose that. No matter how you choose to interpret, it doesn't matter.
No matter how many other comments were posted by other people and what they were talking about. That's got nothing to do with what I posted.
The people listening to the song in the distance on the radio. The different groups of people each time they changed the words. The people being manipulated by the music and the words. The people who know it's a song.
Not the imaginary people firing missiles. Or their imaginary populations. Not violins on television.
Are we done now?

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Nov. 4, 2024, 02:31:32 PM EST

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Nov. 4, 2024, 02:35:19 PM EST

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Nov. 4, 2024, 03:31:19 PM EST

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Nov. 4, 2024, 03:39:18 PM EST

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Nov. 4, 2024, 03:50:50 PM EST

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Nov. 4, 2024, 04:00:51 PM EST
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Post #445,003
11/5/24 8:06:09 AM
11/5/24 8:06:09 AM
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Yoour poor, poor wife...
...if you regularly argue as inefectually, annoyingly, and stupidly with her. This is an interpretation of lyrics issue and who they are targeted towards. Yup. And the interpretation is obviously that they're targeted towards the military-industrial or military-political complex, not (the audience as representatives of) the general public. So obvious that nobody ever -- except you -- has thought anything else. But it doesn't help how often, how thoroughly, or how simply you explain stuff to someone who just blank resuses to understand. Does your paycheck somehow depend on you not understanding this, or something? This is not about violins on television. Can I use that idiom with you? This is not an insult, just wondering if I can use that shorthand. It seems our discussions devolve into occasional misunderstandings and I think that's a very good shorthand for what happens. Sure, you can use it, but I don't get it. And really, shouting (Full-Blown Caps) combined with insults combined with sprinkling of curses (I know it's salt and pepper to you and I try not to react, but it's simply not punctuation in my brain, it's emphasis combined with attack), is it all really required? Is the effect desired? Sigh. Speaking of violins: Cue the world's smallest one. Can I use that idiom with you? Feels fitting for your whining about "attack", after some of your posts over the years. Including at least two this year that I've been letting slide so far. I get to choose the main point of this discussion because I was asking questions about interpretation of lyrics.
[...]
I get to choose who "they" are because I posted and asked the questions about "them". I get to choose that.
[...]
The people listening to the song in the distance on the radio. The different groups of people each time they changed the words. The people being manipulated by the music and the words. Sure. Just let people know when you start talking about different "they"s in the future, because that wasn't what this started out with: as you said, you started out with asking about the lyrics, so I was explaining how the "they" in the lyrics are NOT (Oh boo-hoo, capitals!) the people listening to the song in the distance on the radio. Are we done now? Maybe if you could ever bring yourself to STFU...?
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Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Apparently Still Knows Fucking EverythingMail: Same username as at the top left of this post, at iki.fi
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Post #445,005
11/5/24 9:25:57 AM
11/5/24 9:45:22 AM
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Here's another idiom you're learning
Your impression of Emily Litella is not worth two points of my blood pressure. Especially when you don't have even her level of self-awareness. https://youtu.be/fZLeaSWY37I?si=yF-aNA265F2X6S68And on reread, thanks, I learned exactly what I was looking for. You've been storing up some grievances. And you've been in hovering attack mode. I typically try to never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but you just put yourself on the malice side of this one.

Edited by crazy
Nov. 5, 2024, 09:45:22 AM EST
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Post #445,009
11/5/24 11:15:25 AM
11/5/24 11:15:25 AM
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Bullshit on both.
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