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New Oped: Democracy vs the rule of law
[link|http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg062802.asp|Suppose you were forced to choose]

Excerpt:

For most people in the world, being able to vote is a secondary,
if not trivial consideration when contrasted with the freedom
to work and own property, to speak, to travel, and to worship
freely and to be immune to the arbitrary intrusions of the state.
I haven't done much traveling in the Third World, but Robert
Kaplan has. He writes of Huntington's assertion, "The statement
that the distinction between democracies and dictatorships is
less important than it seems will come as no surprise to those
who have experienced the social chaos in, say, Nigeria and
Ghana, despite the elections that those countries hold, and have
also experienced the relative openness and civil stability of
more-autocratic societies such as Jordan, Tunisia, and
Singapore."

In other words, if you're a normal person with normal
ambitions, living in a dictatorship isn't necessarily all that bad.
If I were black, I'd certainly rather live in 1980s Chile than
1850s Alabama and, as a Jew, there were lots of "tyrannical"
places I'd rather have lived than democratic Germany in the
1930s.

In short, I think the rule of law is more important than
democracy by a long shot. It's not even close. People who place
democracy on a higher pedestal than the rule of law exalt the
self-esteem and ambition of the mob over all else. But the funny
hitch is that democracy is, to date, the best (or least worst, as
Churchill might say) system we have for protecting the rule of
law. When I say system I mean exactly that, a system. You can
draw it on a big piece of paper: Citizens (easily defined) vote
(easily described process) on a certain date for candidates for
specific offices. There's no magic or mystery to an election. Like
with babies, anyone can have one.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New Read "Eat the Rich" by P.J. O'Rourke
Under a democracy, 51 percent of the people can vote to pee in the cornflakes of 49 percent of the people (slave-holding states were ruled by tyrannical majorities, after all).
Yep. Known, I believe, as "tyranny of the majority".

Or, rather, two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Indeed, in America it is not the ballot box but the judicial branch \ufffd the only non-democratic institution we have \ufffd which preserves our liberties.
How? If the executive branch didn't enforce the laws, the judicial branch would never see any cases.

And it was in the United Kingdom that individual rights were born \ufffd out of monarchy and an unwritten constitution.
Is that a reference to the Magna Carta? Possibly.

For most people in the world, being able to vote is a secondary, if not trivial consideration when contrasted with the freedom to work and own property, to speak, to travel, and to worship freely and to be immune to the arbitrary intrusions of the state.
Yet, strangely enough, those rights seldom exist without a democracy or republic also existing.

And then, only for those with the right to vote.

In other words, if you're a normal person with normal ambitions, living in a dictatorship isn't necessarily all that bad.
Pay attention to the use of the word "normal".

If I were black, I'd certainly rather live in 1980s Chile than 1850s Alabama....
Yet being black would not be considered "normal" in 1850's Alabama. "Normal" people were white.

...and, as a Jew, there were lots of "tyrannical" places I'd rather have lived than democratic Germany in the 1930s.
Again, "normal" people weren't Jewish.

So, his point should read, "if you're an oppressed minority, who is doing the oppressing doesn't much matter and certain places will actually oppress you less than others".

But that's a bit too complex.

In short, I think the rule of law is more important than democracy by a long shot.
The problem is finding a totalitarian society that is also bound by laws instead of the whim of the rulers.

As we have seen with our civil liberties being shredded here.

People who place democracy on a higher pedestal than the rule of law exalt the self-esteem and ambition of the mob over all else.
Fairly accurate. Democracy (like Capitalism) must be bound by laws to protect the minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

But the funny hitch is that democracy is, to date, the best (or least worst, as Churchill might say) system we have for protecting the rule of law.
Such was my point.

Any mob of crypto-Nazis or Islamic radicals can pull a lever and declare their views to be "democratic" (it's happened before).
Actually, that is "democratic". As long as said "crypto-Nazis" are the majority.

Again, that is why "democracy" is subject to similar excesses as "capitalism" and why BOTH need to be ruled by laws to protect the less fortunate.

Yeah, intellectually, many liberals agree with the court. And many conservatives are content to concede that this decision is at least consistent with legal precedents (even if, to paraphrase Dickens, the precedents are an ass).
Again, democracy must be bound by laws to protect the minority from oppression by the majority. One of these laws is the separation of Church and State.

But emotionally, instinctively, most people think this was an idiotic decision at minimum and a dangerous one at worst.
"a dangerous one"? What "danger" is there in removing a phrase that was added only 50 years ago?

The instantaneous 99-0 vote in the Senate, the little-noticed fact that evangelical secularist Barry Lynn and the plaintiff are pretty much the only two people willing to defend this decision on TV, the general mockery from late-night comics \ufffd all point to the fact that most Americans don't care whether the constitutional reasoning is solid.
Tyranny of the majority. What "most Americans" think could also be said about slavery in the past and women's right to vote. The majority has been wrong before and we are a better nation because we saw that.

Whatever the Constitution says, we're Americans; we're one nation, under God, for the most part, indivisible, when it matters, with liberty and justice for all \ufffd whenever possible.
And that statement reflects all that is wrong with this country. That we would sacrifice the ideals we have for expediency.
New Thanks for parsing..
I kept hearing my Gramma all over and over and over. But of course (too) any questions were immediately consigned to dev/nullo, never making the slightest ripple within her pool of contended Certainty.

~~~~~~ ripples ~~~~~~~~ Not.

Why ... I can almost hear her reciting now...

[Swirl of brownish haze in two-way mirror.. harps playing in C#]

Whatever the Constitution says, we're Americans; we're one nation, under God, for the most part, indivisible, when it matters, with liberty and justice for all \ufffd whenever possible.


Can a cite from Human Events be far behind..?

Guess I lack the patience of late.. after certain bias-levels of cant are exceeded, especially in C#. Mahler rarely used that key, but often minor-keys; much more suited to the direction of current er Human Events \\\\\\


Ashton
New You're obsessed with that old woman.
That's okay. I'm obsessed with stuff myself. But at least there's something more to me than that. I do at least try to find something concrete to be for. Anybody can be against concrete things. Rebel against the father image and all that. Looking for Truth takes a bit more effort. Not everyone's up to the task.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New How about "freedom"?
How about against "fascism"?

Rather than being in favour of bombing innocents just because they're too weak to strike back at us.

Or aren't those "concrete" enough for you?

I notice you didn't comment on my comments on the article you posted. I thought they were "concrete" enough.

Particularly the one about the possibility of the oppressed in a Democracy (see? that's the bit about being for "freedom") being slightly better off under a different oppressor.
New Thanks for taking the time. Right on!
Alex

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
New hmm...a trial balloon?
really folks, ya don't need to vote, do ya?

Who really needs that Constitution thingy anyway?

Chuckle.

Life sure is getting strange. I used to ask hard-righters if a people voted for a Communistic country - was that wrong? (After all, to quote: "A dictator \ufffd or monarch \ufffd can, in principle, protect civil rights and the rule of law as well as a democracy does.") Perhaps a communistic government - which protected civil rights and the rule of law - would be a good thing?

New Reminds Me of my friend Karl H*
former German Soldier on the Russian Front during WW2. Right war, wrong army as he liked to put it. I remember him screaming at a judge in a civil suit in Anchorage AK "I had more fucking rights in the third Reich than in this fucking court room!!!"

Yes it all depends on wether you are an accepted member of the draconian society or a member of the exploited class on which is better. Rule of law over democracy? No, I like Republics, like America used to be.
thanx,
Bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New But what is law?
Without democracy, what is law?

Withough democracy, law is simply the whim of the powerfull, and since the powerfull get to do what what they want anyway, the phrase "rule of law" is meaningless.

Somebody sent an email to a health show claiming "breating is better than exercise" and the guys on the radio had a lot of fun with it. But it works out the same. Without democracy, there is no meaningfull law - so it is like exercise without breating.
----
United we stand

Divided we dominate the planet without really trying
     Oped: Democracy vs the rule of law - (marlowe) - (8)
         Read "Eat the Rich" by P.J. O'Rourke - (Brandioch) - (4)
             Thanks for parsing.. - (Ashton) - (2)
                 You're obsessed with that old woman. - (marlowe) - (1)
                     How about "freedom"? - (Brandioch)
             Thanks for taking the time. Right on! -NT - (a6l6e6x)
         hmm...a trial balloon? - (Simon_Jester)
         Reminds Me of my friend Karl H* - (boxley)
         But what is law? - (mhuber)

It's no good shouting out all of these random occurrences where you happen to see the face of the Virgin LRPD in a pancake in Guadalajara.
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