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New 401-Ks - Are they still worth it?

With the economy going the way it is, I swear that my balance keeps going down even though I pump money in there every check. (10%).

I mean, it's basically investing in stocks and bonds so when they go in the crapper there goes the old retirement. Would it make more sense these days to just stuff your money into a savings account (or even in-between your mattress)?

Granted, if the banking system goes under... but if that happens we all have more immediate things to worry about than our retirement.

Be gentle with me, cuz I don't speak 'Bank'.
Tom Sinclair
"Subverting Young Minds Since 03/13/2000"
New Does your company match any?
If so...yes...its >definitely< worth it.

If not...there are still tax benefits.

Plus...in this market you should have moved (if they have the options) most of your money to fixed income funds.

All in all...if you want to save...a 401k is a good way to invest.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Yes...6%
Tom Sinclair
"Subverting Young Minds Since 03/13/2000"
New Then you should...
...put in at least 6...which you do.

So...in essence...you are getting 100% interest on your investment...before any market effects.

So even if the value of your 401k drops to half...you're still at your original investment.

Best deal on the planet (legal one anyways ;-)

What you may want to consider is putting the other 4% somewhere else...BUT...some folks don't trust themselves to do that. That, at least, gives them access to the additional value before 59...in case of emergency or what have you. But you still get the tax deferrement on the 4 extra...so whatever your net tax rate is...you get that for starters on the extra.

Some 401ks also allow you to borrow against the amount for any purpose...up to half the invested value...and you then repay yourself.

Great way to get a car loan...etc....from yourself.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New No, talk to your bank
see what other things you can "roll over" your money into. Like a CD, Money Market Fund, IRA etc. I had to do this because I no longer worked for the trolls^D^D^D^D^D^Dlawfirm I had to roll over the 401K and the Profit Sharing. I talked to my bank, and they got me a CD that was garenteed to pay off unlike the 401K. See what your bank or credit union can do for you. In the 401K, my money just shrank and shrank due to the economy.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Sorry to disagree...
...but a matched 401k is better than any other investment..at least on the match.

Rolling over once you leave is another story...and again...most 401k programs have different investments depending ont he amount or risk the investor wants to take.

Mine has 5 options...and you can split the balance between them...and move the balances at any time.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Just my luck I had the rat's *ss 401K program
the one garenteed to lose money when the economy tanks. No matched 401K either, not from the skinflints I used to work for. No fixed investments either, IIRC.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Tax deferred
You still took about a 30% return off the top from tax benefits. That's going to undo a lot of market damage. Too, market losses are only realized when you cash out. Long term, prospects are that you'll see portfolio value climb over your principle. Even in the worst periods of stock performance, there are few ten year periods in which the overall trend wasn't up. You're likely going to be in the market for another three decades, plenty of time to recover.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?

   Keep software free.     Oppose the CBDTPA.     Kill S.2048 dead.
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New Thirty years is a long time
if I can recover from it, I'll be happy. If I cannot recover from my uninstallment and may have to get on disability, I am not sure how much I could save up for my retirment. So far things don't look good, and either my former employer is saying bad things about me (that I suffer from depression, and whatever else they are saying), or there is a different factor preventing me from even getting the simplist job. It feels like everyone is against me right now, jobwise, and I cannot get a break.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New My 401K allows fixed investments
Which is exactly where mine is sitting right now.

I really should put some of it into the stock market now that that has sunk closer to a maintainable level. (If you are investing over a 10 year+ horizon, the stock market is a wise investment. Over just a few years, however, volatility may make it look horrible. When I was staring at the nosebleed P/E ratios, there was no way in hell a couple of years ago that I was going to invest in stocks.)

Cheers,
Ben
"... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."
--Richard Feynman
New Re: My 401K allows fixed investments
A flexible 401K plan is a Good Thing. Company I'm with is semi-flexible, in that they have certain pre-defined types of funds you can put money into - but it's good that one of them concentrates entirely upon government securities.
Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
New Ditto
And government securities are a fixed-income investment.

Hey, I only said they allowed it, not that they gave me great choices in that category! :-)

Cheers,
Ben
"... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."
--Richard Feynman
New Remember two things.
1) You cannot undo the paper losses you've had by pulling funds out. There would be penalties and taxes on the withdrawn 401-K funds. At most you should be thinking about moving funds between the choices you have.

2) It is when things look bleakest that it often the best time to be investing. Unless you have a clear crystal ball that says the markets will continue to go to hell, continue with your contributions with, at least, the matched amount, as Bill says. You could also allocate the money to the more conservative investments as Ben suggests. This will make sleeping easier. The flip side of that is that, if we are "near bottom" in the markets, you will miss out on the faster recovery of stock prices.

If you cut back on your 401-K contributions, use the funds to max out on your Roth IRA in conservative investments like a bond fund. This is now "after tax" money, but you have total control on your IRAs. Usually there is a limited set of (sometimes not the best) choices in 401-Ks. The Roth IRAs and their accumulated value, when you finally start dipping into them, will be tax-free.

The usual disclaimers apply.
Alex

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
New This is good advice

Especially since I'm one of those people who are 'finance-impaired'. I mean, I can make change and all but when it comes to savings and investment I don't have a clue.

I think I'll pull my 401K deduction back to 6%, to match my employer, and try to figure out somewhere else to put the remaining 4%.

In any event, if I get this new gig I'm aiming at, then it may be a new ball game in any event. (I passed the phone interview and they want to talk to me in person.)

Tom Sinclair
"Subverting Young Minds Since 03/13/2000"
New Basic savings advice
The number one rule is to live below your means, consistently. Do that for a lifetime, and you are pretty much guaranteed to wind up well-off. Even if you don't have a stellar income.

The principles here are that you pick an appropriate lifestyle, you only buy on credit when having the purchased makes or saves you money, and you avoid the tax of buying brand new. An appropriate lifestyle might mean taking a bagged lunch to work, saving you over a thousand dollars a year. Appropriate things to buy on credit include a house or education. The former because it saves you rent, and the latter because you are likely to make more. By contrast taking out a loan to buy a new car, couch, or TV doesn't make sense. And if you buy a car when it is 3 years old, you get much the same car at half the price.

Assuming that you are doing this - that you therefore don't have a constant credit card hangover and do have money to invest etc - the principles are simple. There are many types of investment. They can generally be sorted along a spectrum of risk and return - assume that you avoid obvious gambling and wishful thinking, the potential risk is directly correlated with the potential rewards. The longer the time you are investing over, the more appropriate it is to invest in high-risk areas (eg stocks) where inevitable setbacks are outweighed by better long-term returns. If you are investing for a specific more short-term event, say your kid's college, then you should go for lower risk investments like municipal bonds.

And don't worry about being good at it. The oft-quoted, but still true, fact is that if you put random stocks on a dart board, throw your darts, then buy the ones you hit - you will beat the majority of professional funds out there. And they are likely to beat you if you try to actively manage the money. (This is somewhat less true given how much money now sits in indexed funds with their very predictable behaviour.) Do something half-way reasonable, spread your investments around a bit, and be willing to accept that any given 5 year period may suck, and the odds are incredible that you will turn out OK.

And an insider tip about how finance works. Companies like Merrill Lynch spend a lot of energy making up sophisticated terminology which they can teach clients, leaving the clients with the feeling that they are now "sophisticated investors", so that the newly confident clients will start doing stupid stuff - like buying garbage investments that Merrill Lynch needs to sell, and like trading a lot, giving Merrill Lynch a cut each time. So when people start throwing a lot of big words at you that you don't understand, don't get impressed. The odds are that if you don't understand it upon asking for a quick explanation, you didn't need to as a private investor. This is not to say that there are not sophisticated investment tactics that are important. There are, but they are more relevant to, say, a CFO who needs to invest now so as to guarantee having $10 million on hand to pay off a bond in 5 years.

Two book recommendations. [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1563523302/103-7567434-6575837|The Millionaire Next Door] and [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316353809/103-7567434-6575837|How to buy Stocks]. The first underscores my lifestyle comment. The second should give you all of the vocabulary and understanding of principles that you need to understand the stock market.

Cheers,
Ben
"... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."
--Richard Feynman
New As always
your post was extremely lucid and educational.

As for investing, my own preference is to just dump a certain amount into a fund (well, like my 401K) and get back to my life.

I've never been much for actively trading stocks.

Tom Sinclair
"Subverting Young Minds Since 03/13/2000"
New It's worked for me.
Accent upon: a clear discrimination among countless random 'wants' and some reasonable facsimile of actual? 'need' (modified by the occasional.. Oh WTF, why not?) Life IS, after all about Exceptions [Captain Picard Vol I.] and spontaneity is a deadly price ever to pay for umm 'logical conformity' 24/7.

Frankly too: the scary idea of "giving up" all that stuff: is equally a Red Herring. Once you take personal inventory and discover (don't know how to put it Universally) "what you love VS sorta like" - the triage is not at all unpleasant - it could even be called exhilarating! tossing those useless boxes of saved stuff.

As always YMMV.

Bon appetit y'all. (One lives longer eating small portions, it is said)



Ashton
New Supporting link.
You may not care for the sponsor, but the [link|http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/020701/12333_1.html|message] is right on target.
Alex

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
New See whatcha mean ;-)
Well, even GE has to get it right, sometimes..

Now then, cutting out that one manicure/ week saved me $27K ??! - Wow! now I can spend it. But wait, where did it go?

(Is that the corollary of: "Hey! it's on Sale; Look at how much I'll *save* buying this ____")

We have to Face It: we're All bloody good rationalizers - A+

I wonder if the $29K for COFFEE - was at current Starbucks prices forever, otherwise pretty impressive if the # comes from integrating ascending costs over an actual 30 years.

Anyway - a good sample of the Magic of compound interest (too). But then, so was I one who enquired about the share cost of Sony Corp, early-on.. found it was about $1/share. Neglected to buy some.


So what do I know?


Ashton
     401-Ks - Are they still worth it? - (tjsinclair) - (18)
         Does your company match any? - (bepatient) - (2)
             Yes...6% -NT - (tjsinclair) - (1)
                 Then you should... - (bepatient)
         No, talk to your bank - (orion) - (7)
             Sorry to disagree... - (bepatient) - (3)
                 Just my luck I had the rat's *ss 401K program - (orion) - (2)
                     Tax deferred - (kmself) - (1)
                         Thirty years is a long time - (orion)
             My 401K allows fixed investments - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                 Re: My 401K allows fixed investments - (wharris2) - (1)
                     Ditto - (ben_tilly)
         Remember two things. - (a6l6e6x) - (6)
             This is good advice - (tjsinclair) - (5)
                 Basic savings advice - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                     As always - (tjsinclair)
                     It's worked for me. - (Ashton) - (2)
                         Supporting link. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                             See whatcha mean ;-) - (Ashton)

Oh look... it's a dork!
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