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New We're finally achieving the world title we should have had since 1980.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Err, ~1620? if we look for Root-causes..
Given that the earliest Conquerors here were the ejected scum of the [Euro-] Earth--freed thus to become Meister-scum here, in all ways.

Imagine!--if you can; it's fing-Hard--had You, moi and the n-millions? been told truthiness about our heir-itage from the get-go, in grammar school --> onwards;
with as many details as were known, along the way.

Contemporary assisting comparo: Look how Germany has -->FACED /full-front-nudity: THEIR inescapable fact of having been exactly inhuman-Savages,
(despite admirable chops for their academic, engineering and other advantages--however $$-broken just then).


..then we would not have to spawn these W.T.F Happened!? from our vantaged Elysian Fields of milk, honey and decent 'retirement' /if chosen: at Oh say, ~49?
:-þ
New IME, it didn't necessarily take truthiness.
All it took was Soviet propaganda for me to look at my own country and its history from a different POV. But that same propaganda did not work on the majority of Soviets! To illustrate this point, consider that my family was in the Soviet Union in 1969 when the Manson murders occurred. Never missing an opportunity to demonstrate the evils of the West, there were Soviet television reports on it as well as articles in Pravda. My mother was a fan of Sharon Tate and was quite distraught. My father was speaking about it to a Soviet acquaintance and the acquaintance replied, "Oh, Zhenya, tell your wife not to worry. You don't believe that happened do you? You can't believe that happened. It was printed in Pravda!" My father tried, in vain, to convince a lot of his contacts over there that Sharon Tate had indeed been murdered. None of them believed him. They all said, "Nothing like that happens in America. It is the land of milk and honey."

Arguably, no people thought as highly of the US and Americans as the Soviet people. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, though, a lot of those rose glasses are becoming clear. The past 3.5 years have made those glasses crystal clear. As a Brit friend of mine said recently, "It is going to take generations of Americans to rebuild your [the US] reputation around the world."
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Not gonna happen
--

Drew
New YM rebuild US reputation? Naah, I'm with Droo: That peaked forever somewhere between JFK and Reagan.
New Also, Obama was wildly popular outside the US
New Peaked in Europe following WWII and Marshall Plan?
If so, isn't it curious that the height of our reputation occurred when our most racist post-antebellum laws were still on the books and being enforced?

It'd be almost as if Europe didn't really give a tinker's damn about racism.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New I think you're conflating two things that don't need conflating.
Most of post-war Europe didn't have a scooby about what was going on inside America.

Most of Europe only got any information about America from Hollywood films and the odd news story, at least until the advent of television and even then, popular culture was the prime messaging medium. Y'all should have made less racist films and TV, basically.

You see, until very recently, no-one outside the US actually gave much of a shiny shit about what you weirdos were up to, because it didn't matter; but now, America's internal shuddering upheavals have global consequences, so it's a fool who doesn't pay attention.
New Disagree.
It is not unreasonable to suggest that the Marshall Plan contributed significantly to the esteem with which the US was held following WWII. Britain received much more than even Germany did through the Marshall Plan.

To suggest no one looked the gift horse in the mouth, while perhaps understandable, is unsettling. Such a position implies that post-WWII Europeans didn't care who gave them the money to rebuild. They'd take it from anyone without regard to the contributors decency or ethics. A variant of the Soviet apologist's "Stalin was brutal. But he inherited a nation using wooden plows and turned it into a nuclear power," if you will.

Neither you nor I were alive then. But, you are there and have grown to adulthood there. I'd normally be inclined to defer to you on this point. But the fact remains that at the height of our reputation we were deeply flawed, particularly on matters of race (and, not to put too fine a point on it, remain so today). But the UK is far from being without sin in this regard. I think you'd have to admit that the Brexit vote was won by appealing to racism far more than the uncountably many non-race based false claims made by Leave leaders.

So, was it blindness (willful or otherwise) or common bigotry that allowed our reputation to achieve its height in Europe in an era when our government was passing and enforcing the most racist laws in our post Civil War history? I cannot say I know the answer to that question. You're in a better position than I to answer that question, so feel free to choose the one that suits you best.

For my part, it still seems incongruous that we could be thought of so highly when our Federal Government was doing things like requiring clauses in deeds to read, "this property will never be transferred to ownership nor rental by Blacks" in order to gain a Fair Housing Administration loan and in the era of apartheid.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
Expand Edited by mmoffitt July 10, 2020, 09:52:29 AM EDT
New You answer your own question
So, was it blindness (willful or otherwise) or common bigotry that allowed our reputation to achieve its height in Europe in an era when our government was passing and enforcing the most racist laws in our post Civil War history? I cannot say I know the answer to that question. You're in a better position than I to answer that question, so feel free to choose the one that suits you best.

Blindness, like I just fuckin' said :D
New Willful?
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Now you're just being obtuse.
You know the answer.
New in the 70's in england the local yout's asked me what kind of machine gun I owned
how many folks got killed in the bars on saturday night. All they know of america was from the movies.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
New Right - and unfortunately for the Russians . . .
. . they learned all about Capitalism from C and D level gangster movies - thus Putin and his pals.
New It couldn't have been "all movies" in the UK.
Over 1,600,000 American servicemen and women were in Great Britain as the invasion was launched. Numbers dwindled thereafter, but as late as April 30, 1945 there were still over 224,000 airmen, 109,000 communications zone troops, and 100,000 in hospitals or preparing to serve as individual replacements.

https://www.abmc.gov/news-events/news/americans-great-britain-world-war-ii-online-interactive-released
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Stahp.
You asked a question, I answered it.

I will talk slowly, as if to a small child:

We just. didn't. care. about. American. domestic. news. and. events. There. were very. few. ways. of. getting. it. even. if. we. did.

The vast majority of those military personnel were on American bases where they had little to no interaction with The Limeys, other than getting pissed in the local pub.

And then, very shortly afterwards, the vast, vast majority of them fucked off home, as you would expect.
New A) Yes, and B) What a stupid question and statement.
The Moff Tarks:
If so, isn't it curious that the height of our reputation occurred when our most racist post-antebellum laws were still on the books and being enforced?
No, that isn't "curious" in the least. It's a) mainly coincidence, and b) completely natural, because...

It'd be almost as if Europe didn't really give a tinker's damn about racism.
Wow, what humongous insight -- not. No, of course they didn't. Pretty much nobody did, back then. AS YOU'VE JUST BEEN WHINING ABOUT THE USA ITSELF. Sheesh...
--

   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who (used to think he) Knows Fucking Everything


Mail: Same username as at the top left of this post, at iki.fi
New And to a large extent, they still don't care. Or at least, not in a way to make things better.
It has now devolved into a vicious circle with mutually reinforcing dogmas of Jihad/Crusade. The undertones were obvious in the Brexit episode; French large cities are just as much tinderboxes as any US metro area; Belgium has laws barring discrimination based on race/origins/... in housing and employment, but has made it near impossible to make an individual complaint stick and any cases that explode into the spotlight get buried with a slap on the wrist; etc, etc, ...
New Thanks ... good to realize your take, then.
(And such testimony couldn't come from anyone but: an auslander, for obv. reason).
Guessing here that, [previously!] Iranians seem to have hsd similar regard for that goodness-myth
and with some provenance even:
Marshall Plan in lieu of roasting-all-Germans ... for one of several actually Humanitarian acts by the USA.

Throw-in: that humanitarian-Anything = 0 since Menace: has wiped most every slate worldwide. As may prove more deadly to our fellow inmates than COVID.
Merely the internal non-dialogue, techno-reported everywhere: indicates the depth of our multiply despicable sub-tribes.
I no idea how: such en delicto flagrante repeated, filmed! Actions can ever be neutralized, save by a couple decades of magically-contrite psyche rebuilding.

The actual meaning(s) of SHAME must be taught from tyke-hood on, next (also: to put a STOP-to) callow-yout who have weaponized the word as merely,
another form-of-Gunz-culture.. All it took was: Thirty Years of solidly nefarious Repo sabotage via language murder: permeating that vast fecklessl plurality.



Manfred.. his riposte to a Robed-one trying to console him (in Hell: where he went, to rescue his beloved Astarte):
Old man ... it. is. not. so. hard. to. die.
(Fortunately I have the LP of this Lord Byron Play-masterpiece; the spoken-word ever supersedes).
New I am not "around the world", but . . .
. . my respect for the people of "fly over America" has been damaged beyond repair - and I include plenty of folks in the Pacific Northwest and the Atlantic Southeast as well - and that so-called "Greatest Generation" has shown its true colors quite adequately.

My respect for the Evangelical Churches was already very faint, but now I know they are the true Satanic Churches. Any church declaring that "Donald Trump has been sent by God to be King of America" has not the faintest association with the teachings of Jesus. Donald Trump embodies nearly everything Jesus taught against.

My respect for women has also been damaged. The women's vote was instrumental in putting Trump in office. The news has shown that women are among the most vicious bigots, racists and violators of humanitarian standards in the country. By time we graduated from high school, we guys could see by example that "girls prefer jerks" was true. Viewing the people around Trump I can see that a mere jerk could not compete against a total asshole with money. Apparently it's in their DNA.
New I'll FIFY: s/The women's vote was instrumental/The White women's vote was instrumental/
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
     Euro take on dis-US's crumbling future re any 'trans-Pacific-Alliance' ... and implications. - (Ashton) - (21)
         We're finally achieving the world title we should have had since 1980. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (20)
             Err, ~1620? if we look for Root-causes.. - (Ashton) - (19)
                 IME, it didn't necessarily take truthiness. - (mmoffitt) - (18)
                     Not gonna happen -NT - (drook) - (14)
                         YM rebuild US reputation? Naah, I'm with Droo: That peaked forever somewhere between JFK and Reagan. -NT - (CRConrad) - (13)
                             Also, Obama was wildly popular outside the US -NT - (pwhysall) - (12)
                                 Peaked in Europe following WWII and Marshall Plan? - (mmoffitt) - (11)
                                     I think you're conflating two things that don't need conflating. - (pwhysall) - (8)
                                         Disagree. - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                                             You answer your own question - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                 Willful? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                     Now you're just being obtuse. - (pwhysall)
                                             in the 70's in england the local yout's asked me what kind of machine gun I owned - (boxley) - (3)
                                                 Right - and unfortunately for the Russians . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                 It couldn't have been "all movies" in the UK. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                     Stahp. - (pwhysall)
                                     A) Yes, and B) What a stupid question and statement. - (CRConrad)
                                     And to a large extent, they still don't care. Or at least, not in a way to make things better. - (scoenye)
                     Thanks ... good to realize your take, then. - (Ashton)
                     I am not "around the world", but . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                         I'll FIFY: s/The women's vote was instrumental/The White women's vote was instrumental/ -NT - (mmoffitt)

Using Powerpoint in the schools--that's better than teaching kids how to smoke.
77 ms