Plane seat discrimination

Post #43,242 by tablizer 6/23/02 1:29:37 PM Reply	Plane seat discrimination Some airlines are starting to charge double for "large" people. Although I am not quite at that point, if I ever broke a foot or something and could not excercise, I just might be. The problem is the one-size-fits-all mentality. They should have different size seats for different size people. They would only need a handful or larger seats on each plane. It is not like it will bankrupt them. Take 10 seats and turn them into 6 six seats. The airline would only lose 4 seats. Although Shaq can afford double seats, the rest of us cannot. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #43,245 by ben_tilly 6/23/02 3:07:08 PM Reply	That isn't discrimination If your fat ass requires you to take up 2 seats, you buy two seats. What do you want? That they offer you double-seats for the price of one? They will never do that. If there is sufficient demand then they might offer larger seats at a premium, but the extra space is going to cost you extra. One way or another, if you want more space on a fundamentally space-limited transport like a plane, you pay for it. It is the same as the food that you eat to help maintain that ass. If you find that you need twice as many meals to be happy, you have to pay for twice as many meals. Nobody is going to offer you a free meal, "Because you are big and need extra food." If there is sufficient demand (in this case there is) they may offer you extra food at a premium. For instance McDonalds will let you "super-size it" if you pay a bit more. But one way or another, if you want more food, you have to pay for extra food. And before complaining about what you can and cannot afford in the way of airplanes, do a detailed budget of what you spend on food versus airplanes. The odds are incredibly good that you spend far more on food than planes. The odds are also incredibly good that if you found ways to eat more cheaply, then you would be able to afford the airplane trips you find yourself wanting to take, even if you do have to buy 2 seats rather than one. (This is a safe bet because food is a major budgetary item for most people - it certainly is for me.) The world no more owes pairs of airplane seats to fat people than it does some serious stretch room to skinny ones. Hell, I would like some serious leg room. I am a tall guy. But I won't get it unless I pay for first class, and that isn't discrimination. That is called capitalism in action. Regards, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #43,249 by a6l6e6x 6/23/02 3:41:14 PM Reply	Agree. I can still recall one flight (~5 hr) from Charlotte, NC to San Francisco, CA om US Air in middle seat next to a guy whose body "spilled over and under" the hand rest. Talk about a miserable flight. Perhaps first class with the big seats is cheaper than buying two coach seats. I will grant you that the airlines have shrunk the allocated space per passenger. Alex "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Post #43,252 by Ashton 6/23/02 4:16:32 PM Reply	Reasonable.. ___theoretically But as passenger seat size has already been shrunk to the point where "normal" (average, median, RMS - pick your fav) people are Spam in a Can too, for hours, breathing inadequately exchanged air, (sprinkled and concentrated with whatever bugs a random carrier happened to bring along): As Alex points out - those who barely fit.. now 'spill over'. I have experienced that too; makes an already marginally-bearable excuse for "human transportation" - finally reminiscent of boxcars enroute to colorful destinations in the '30s. Don't snile... smarl. I see nothing even conceptually wrong with providing for the now: ^$(%$^ NORMAL range of human sizes in Our overfed, me-me-me obsessed culture: after all THESE ARE the people being solicited for this 'product'. Surely you wouldn't carry the homogenization of products to the level of, no accommodation of variety at all? So I see the problem as about unimaginitive anal-retentive bean counters (again: surprise) - who do not see their 'product' as being: the serving of human customers, but the merchandising of product/tickets. A simple 2x4-assisted spinal adjustment might cause the normal-IQ marketers (80-87?) to Understand what the phrase, 'variety of human shapes' might mean. In the interim: yes, they Could.. reserve the 6 special larger seats for those whose avoirdupois Needs them; as plane fills, others could enjoy the rare human-sized room by the usual Murican means.. Fight Over Them. Discreetly. Ashton who believes that airlines possess all the imagination and sentience of Dubya + a peculiarly virulent strain of knownothing-ness. We should not dignify this thoughtlessness via stupid Econ theories about 'objects' and spreadsheets. PS - I'm neither Large nor Long - and I find airline seats of past few years: inexcusable. I may not use one again, for a long while. (But at least - I don't Have To either)
Post #43,269 by Meerkat 6/23/02 9:26:14 PM Reply	Being large ! always = spending squillions on food. IANAHP (I am not a health professional...) It's the metabolism thing. Some people eat like horses and still look like a matchstick with the wood scraped off, others can put on weight seemingly just by breathing in air from the local DoubleMeat Palace, or whatever. So it's not always Gluttony that's the problem. More often, it's Sloth. On the whole, finding time to exercise, and an exercise to do, is pretty easy. (really!) Trouble is, find an excuse not to exercise is much easier. Very generally speaking, slow metabolism people have to exercise more than fast metabolism people if they want to achieve and maintain a healthy weight. So for all the lard-carrying members of Club Big out there* ... deal with it. I know I've spent much more on food than aeroplane trips though - I've only flown about 5 times in my life, and only once international :) (and FWIW I'm not ginormous and have no trouble fitting in a standard aeroplane / restaurant / theatre seat.) But despite all that, expecting extra seat room for a problem that is (with sufficient willpower) fixable, is not right. Can't expect others to subsidise the laziness of the ordinary person. It's a special right available only to politicians :) * yeah, according to the sums I'm currently in the 'borderline obese' chapter of Club Big :) On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #43,273 by ben_tilly 6/23/02 10:16:40 PM Reply	I am well aware of that You can work up a couple of hundred pounds extra over an extended period of years by just adding a fraction of pound per week, which is hardly going to break the budget. And then there are people with metabolic problems. In many cases, people who are on what would be a serious diet for anyone else will still gain weight. (My wife could give me a list of such conditions if I asked...) I have friends with problems like these, and would not trivialize them. But strangely enough it seems that most grotesquely obese people (and people who need two seats on an airplane generally qualify) actually do like eating a lot, on a regular basis. Which is fine. Enjoy life, and may I suggest that you will find Paris singularly congenial to your tastes? However unless you can point to a specific medical condition which is causing your speific problem, don't look to me for sympathy over the results. And somehow I feel singularly uninclined to give BryceJ the benefit of the doubt... Cheers, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #43,283 by Meerkat 6/24/02 3:11:36 AM Reply	Yeah I only have myself to blame for not doing enough exercise. The fact I need to do a little more than average is a bummer, but as they say in the classics, 'deal with it'. Same for all the other lard-arses out there. On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #44,159 by tablizer 7/1/02 8:55:20 PM Reply	Excercise is not the answer (* On the whole, finding time to exercise, and an exercise to do, is pretty easy. (really!) ) Bull! It is unpleasent and time-consuming. A person might have 2 free hours in a day, and if they spend one on excercise, then they only have 1 free hour left. You might live say 30 percent longer, but you still have less total* free hours in your life-time. I tried excercising every day once, and only lost about 5 pounds before it plattowed [1](flattened out). If I extrapolate that, I would have to excercise about 3 hours a day to loose 20. (Anybody going to argue that it is not linear?) [1] I hate f&(&( English. Fonetics or bust, dammit! The problem is that we were created by evolution, and not some future-seeing God, who would otherwise adjust us for desk-work. This excercise discipline thing is just a creationist conspiracy to deny the side-effects of darwinism. (Well, okay, I am exaggerating a bit.) Our body is built with the assumption that we do physical work all fricken day, and that bulk equals surviving fammon and illness (and that we die at 38). When food is scarce, being fat means getting laid more. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #44,276 by inthane-chan 7/2/02 5:06:11 PM Reply	Diet AND exercise is the answer. As a sucessful ex-lardy, I can safely say that watching your food intake is just as important. I'm flatlined now at ~210lbs, but it was amazing to watch that weight come off. My wife has lost quite a bit too, but she'd murder me if I posted hard stats. :) As far as the exercise stats go - well, didn't we spend about 20 hours per week working when we were hunter/gatherer tribes? I doubt we spent much time exercising during our offtimes... InThane - Now running Ashton rev 2.0
Post #44,498 by orion 7/4/02 9:38:35 PM Reply	Not always I got a membership at the YMCA, and switched to regular food rather than junk food and fast food, and cut back on the salt, sugar, fats, carbs, and calories and even ate smaller portions. Guess what? I gained about 10 pounds this month alone! Metabolism has a lot to do with it, I have a thin friend who can come over and eat 5 plates of Spahgetti at my house while I eat a 1/4th plate with vegatables. Guess who gains the weight (me), and guess who doesn't gain the weight (him)? It is all BS, it is about the person's metabolism and trying to get it to speed up. That is why diets and exercise fail for a lot of overweight people. Plus if they eat less and burn off the food, their bodies will think they are starving and slow down the metabolism even more to try and counter the starvation. I've never met a diet and exercise plan that worked for me, never. I am 290 pounds now, and going on 300 soon. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #44,527 by ben_tilly 7/5/02 7:16:46 AM Reply	Bullshit Either you have a serious medical problem for which you should see a doctor, or else your description of your circumstances left some important details out. I would wager the latter. Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #44,539 by wharris2 7/5/02 9:09:18 AM 7/5/02 10:03:20 AM Reply	Unexpected weight gain Indeed, if it is as said, you really do need to see a doctor as soon as possible. I experienced an inordinate weight gain (I'm not sure if it took a month or how long it was - I don't weigh myself that regularly), but it was on the order of 20 pounds and was the result of a pretty serious problem. [edit - naturally "you" isn't you, Ben.] [edit - it did put me into the hospital for about ten days.] Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..." Edited by wharris2 July 5, 2002, 10:03:20 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #44,599 by ben_tilly 7/6/02 7:39:03 AM 7/6/02 7:41:31 AM Reply	Unexpected weight changes are usually bad I don't know what conditions are associated with weight gain, but my wife has mentioned repeatedly that unexplained weight loss is a red flag for cancer. (Cancer cells have, of course, a very high metabolism.) Cheers, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman Edited by ben_tilly July 6, 2002, 07:41:31 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #44,546 by orion 7/5/02 11:20:51 AM Reply	Serious medical condition which one? I have several of them. I saw my doctor and he thinks it could be one of my medications side effects causing the weight gain. So he changed it on me. But still I gain weight no matter what I do. In college I took a weight training class, instead of losing weight I gained a lot of weight. They said it must have been muscle mass as I was able to lift 600 pounds with my legs, etc. I worked out hard with weights, and I watched what I ate, and I followed everything I could for that class. I have a serious medical condition, it is called a slow metabolism. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #44,574 by wharris2 7/5/02 8:41:22 PM Reply	slow metabolism That doesn't make you constantly gain weight that fast. Even with a slow metabolism (and I'm not one of those skinny guys who can eat an entire pizza by themselves and remain skinny as a string bean, either), you still plateau at a point at which the slow metabolism will burn what you feed it. Oh, you may keep gaining every year (my parents and one of my grandmothers are like that), but not by leaps and bounds every month. Dammit, why couldn't my father have inherited whatever "fast metabolism" gene his mother had? She was light as a bird for as long as I knew her despite the proverbial "meat and potatos" meals that made my grandfather somewhat overweight. On the other side of the family, it was Grandfather who was the skinny guy and Grandmother who was the heavy one. The gene pool must have been stirred badly. :(
Post #44,584 by orion 7/5/02 10:43:56 PM Reply	Add in the perscriptions that I have which say they can cause weight-gain to my slow metabolsim, and you will find that it causes quick weight-gain. When I was in the hospital for depression, I was told that I wasn't eating enough. They almost thought I had an eating disorder, sometimes I didn't eat my food. But back then I was around 245 pounds, now I am around 290 pounds after the medicine I was given to fight depression was changed. I had it changed again and hope that I can get rid of some of this weight. If not, I have disability to consider if I go over 300 pounds. Being overweight has not helped my depression at all, and the doctor said it was not natrual and may be caused by the medicine. I doubt I will fit into a plane seat anymore. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #44,590 by wharris2 7/6/02 2:17:26 AM Reply	Re: Add in the perscriptions that I have I'm currently taking seven drugs every day. I sympathize with you. (Two are hard-core vitamins, one is a diuretic, I forget what the others are doing.) Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
Post #44,601 by pwhysall 7/6/02 8:37:13 AM Reply	Re: Not always So, if exercise and eating less isn't the answer, just what the hell is? Sorry, but either you're making it up or missing something out. Straight question. Do you exercise at all? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #43,299 by deSitter 6/24/02 10:32:29 AM Reply	Charging By Volume I endorse this idea. Actually they should charge for three seats, because noone wants to sit next to a whale either. And while they are at it, why not go relativistic and also charge people for the time they spend forcing a steamer trunk into the overhead bin that already has three steamer trunks crammed into it, while trim and timely team players swelter and stifle on JP9 fumes in the jetway? -desitter, dreading a Friday flight
Post #43,387 by ben_tilly 6/25/02 7:06:32 AM Reply	Good luck with your flight But I disagree with your biases. Barring unconnnected hygiene problems, I don't mind sitting next to someone who is obese as long as their body doesn't take up my seat. But my real pet peeve are people who rest their feet on the chair in front of them. Excuse the fuck me, but my back is already going to be killing me enough when I step off of the plane. I don't need a collection of additional bruises where you kicked me... Cheers, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #43,458 by broomberg 6/25/02 8:12:27 PM Reply	Dangerous flight I was going to/coming from (not sure, 10 years ago!) Orlando once with my son. He was 3ish. There was a kid in the seat behind me that kept kicking my seat. I'd say he was 10ish. His father was next to him. His father was a stereotypical Hell's Angel biker. Big, fat, tattood, bearded. He was wearing all the gear, greasy pants, biker wallet, denim vest, with colors, etc. I mean he was SCARY! I asked the kid to stop kicking, maybe 3 times. I then asked his father to make him stop. He shrugged it off. I then DEMANDED he make him stop. He looked at me, and SNARLED! Not sure exactly what he said, it was along the lines: I can't control him! I gave him a look that was a mixture of pity, disgust, and contempt, and said: That's really sad. You can't control a child. And then I realized I was about to spend the next hour, trapped in a tin can, with a furious biker sitting behind me. I couldn't even keep an eye one him. I was scared to death! I was sweating, my heart pounding, waiting for the moment he decided to kill me. Nothing happened. When we got off the plane, and I survived, I was so relieved. I then almost bumped into them 10 minutes later in the bathroom!!! I stayed out of sight. I have got to learn to keep my mouth shut in dangerous situations.
Post #43,484 by Ashton 6/26/02 4:29:42 AM Reply	Sometimes ya gotta.. On a flight, some sort of complaint by guy in front of me. He was being obnoxious to the Stewardess (yes, it was on OK word then). He finally demanded her name, etc. No choice (everybody just sat there mute, like rabbits). I piped up, "Stewardess, I'd like your name and boss's name, please. I'd like to give a version of this event too." She looked at me 'professionally' (and with a fleeting Mona Lisa smile I won't forget, then shook my hand discreetly as she was leaving the scene) and gave me the info. Guy shut up. ~~And we were married the next month, had 3 kids and~~ Nahh, but it felt good to cancel out a drunk asshole (who was also Big). I wrote, but I doubt the Guy did, after he sobered up. I did make sure to follow Him out of the plane, though ;-) Ashton Nemesis
Post #43,487 by ben_tilly 6/26/02 6:45:00 AM Reply	I think I heard that one from you before... And the kid didn't kick you any more, which means that in my books it was worth it. Right? :-) Cheers, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #43,567 by broomberg 6/26/02 10:04:30 PM Reply	Yeah, I think he stopped
Post #43,492 by deSitter 6/26/02 8:53:51 AM Reply	Dangerous Ride Me: 1986, happy camper on my brand new Honda VF1100 Sabre - 128 Hp. Fast. Maiden voyage to the N. Georgia Mtns. Up ahead - a pack of Harleys. Let's see how this baby runs... ZOOM! I pass the whole pack in 4th gear at about 90 - on a curve. I look back with a big grin and flash them all a peace sign. I pull into Dahlonega and stop off to have a quick beer. As I'm coming out, guess who's coming in... (No, I didn't get my ass kicked. We went back in and all had a few more. Bikers are nice guys. Even to riders of rice rockets.) -desitter
Post #44,163 by tablizer 7/1/02 9:19:53 PM Reply	The trick (* I asked the kid to stop kicking, maybe 3 times. I then asked his father to make him stop. He shrugged it off. I then DEMANDED he make him stop. He looked at me, and SNARLED! Not sure exactly what he said, it was along the lines: I can't control him! *) Mess up your hair and give the kid the "psycho-nerd" look. Cover the dad's view with a pillow so that only the kid sees. The psycho-nerd look is as frighting as any hells angle's snarl. Snapping a pen in two might add to the effect. If the dad sleeps, a wayward ice-cube might also do the trick. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #44,158 by tablizer 7/1/02 8:43:39 PM Reply	Quatum Billing (* If your fat ass requires you to take up 2 seats, you buy two seats. *) And if one's ass takes up only 1.4 seats, they should still pay for 2, just because the airline wants one-size-fits all? 1.4 is fine, but NOT two. (BTW, Southwest Airlines, the one starting all this, does not have first-class.) ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #43,304 by boxley 6/24/02 10:58:19 AM Reply	seating on planes 36 in wide leg room 27 inches For the folks that have met me I am not tiny and frequently find myself sitting between two even larger people. Elbow hockey all the way. Having sat next to grossly obese folks I realize a couple of things, they arnt any more comfortable than you are. Unless international almost no hops are over 4 hrs. I can sit motionless for 4 hrs if I have to. As Carlin sez, this is a bus yer a waitress so get me a drink. thanx, bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #44,555 by mmoffitt 7/5/02 2:49:29 PM Reply	And FAA Standard Adult Weight = 170 pounds.
Post #43,391 by admin 6/25/02 8:33:10 AM Reply	No problems with a few larger seats. So long as you realize that the airlines will charge proportionately more for them. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #44,160 by tablizer 7/1/02 9:00:04 PM Reply	Will shorties get discounts then? ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #44,257 by wharris2 7/2/02 1:46:15 PM Reply	Long ago and far away I had this story from the "normal-sized" person involved(). To my knowledge, both people have left that company anyway, although I did know the one guy and saw the other. Imagine a guy so grossly obese that he didn't stand in front of the urinal, he sort of "docked" with the urinal. Imagine him and Mr. Normal attending some sort of corporate meeting or user group across the country. Mr. Normal spent the first leg of the journey mashed up against a window, so for the second leg of the flight, managed to change seats and was thinking he was going to be a happy camper. Trouble is, the other guy managed to find out and also* changed seats so he could be close to his other company executive thus making the entire trip a living hell for Mr. Normal. (*) I can't say I was a close friend, but we bowled together on the same team for a while and he had plenty of time to tell Dilbertesque stories.
Post #44,281 by inthane-chan 7/2/02 5:23:25 PM Reply	Bus ride from HELL. About a year and a half ago (on my b-day!) I was riding the bus to work. The stop after I got on, a MASSIVE (600+lbs at LEAST - she needed the "wheelchair lift" to get on the bus...) got on the bus, shuffled down the aisle, SCREAMED at me "MOVE THE FUCK OVER, ASSHOLE!" and before I could do anything, THREW herself into the seat next to me. There were maybe five other people on the bus, and a ton of open seats. The initial shock knocked the wind out of me, and her mass literally pinned me to the side of the bus. She actually compressed my ribcage so much that I had trouble breathing. I couldn't even squeak, let alone make any comments about how I'd be glad to get out of her seat. The driver didn't do anything. The bus ride took an hour and a half. Finally, we got to the downtown bus tunnel, which has a series of several stops. I missed my stop (because I was pinned, and incapable of speaking, and probably suffering oxygen deprivation related brain damage by that point) and then, for some reason I don't remember, the guy behind me hit her on the back of the head and made some disparaging remark about her weight. Well, at first she thought I had done it - and so suddenly I was subjected to not only wailing fists, but flapping wings of blubber slapping my arms over and over again. It was all I could do to protect my face until she figured out who had REALLY made the comment - at which point I slipped over the seat into the seat in front, and exited from the bus post haste, and passed the transit police on my way out of the bus tunnel. I actually do feel a bit sorry for her - she was obviously mentally ill - but my GOD, I NEVER want to go through that again. InThane - Now running Ashton rev 2.0
Post #44,329 by boxley 7/3/02 8:59:07 AM Reply	Bus etiquette Get on and look for an empty seat. Sit on the aisle. Glare like a maniac at any guys when they get on the bus while mining for snot. Hork gruelies into a soggy hankerchief. Leer maniacally at any women from 10 to 90 while licking your chops. Always had a seat to myself unless I gave it up for someone who needed it more than I. thanks, Bill TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS

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