Hmmm, so military action does not stop attacks.

Post #43,068 by Brandioch 6/20/02 5:43:59 PM Reply	Hmmm, so military action does not stop attacks. [link\|http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,263863,00.html\|Here] Well, I'm sure that isn't news for anyone who doesn't live in a fantasy world. For those others, here's a real world demonstration. Yet none of that was enough to save the lives of 19 innocent Israelis, and Palestinian attacks are as commonplace now as they were before the Israeli offensive that essentially ended PA-control over territory in the West Bank. The Bush administration's internal splits over Middle East policy have been out in the open over the past two weeks, with Secretary of State Colin Powell speaking in favor of immediate movement toward some provisional form of Palestinian statehood as a means of creating hope among ordinary Palestinians to counteract the despair on which the extremist organizations feed
Post #43,071 by inthane-chan 6/20/02 5:57:14 PM Reply	Gotta have some carrot with that stick... InThane - Now running Ashton rev 2.0
Post #43,072 by marlowe 6/20/02 6:44:13 PM Reply	Naw, just reduces the rate a bit. And hey, that's progress. Maybe more crackdowns would reduce the rate even more. Stands to reason. (I'm gonna pass on the opportunity to rag on Brandioch's source here. It's too easy. And it's not like he'll take it heart or anyhting.) [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes. If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
Post #43,078 by Brandioch 6/20/02 7:41:35 PM Reply	You don't like "Time"? Or is it CNN you are opposed to? And what part of "attacks are as commonplace now" do you not understand? Yet you skip that bit and claim: Naw, just reduces the rate a bit. Attention Planet Rapunzel! The "attacks are as commonplace now" as they were before. Which word di you not understand? "attacks"? "are"? "as"? "commonplace"? "now"? "they"? "were"? "before"?
Post #43,079 by orion 6/20/02 8:06:58 PM Reply	because they didn't get the root of the problem they didn't get the leaders who are palnning the attacks. Like arresting the drug users and letting the dealers and suppliers and smugglers go free. When will we learn? *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #43,085 by JayMehaffey 6/20/02 8:47:12 PM Reply	Learn? The current pattern of attacks by Sharon's Isreali government looks like they are doing it intentionally. Look at the pattern of the last year or so. Fanatics associated with Hamas or the Islamic Jihad attack Isreali targets. Arafat condems the attacks. Isreal attacks Arafat and ignores the other groups. They get away with this by lumping all the Palastinian groups into one Palastinian movement, despite the fact that Arafat's group and Hamas have fought open battles. This causes more violence in the area, which gives Sharon more excuses to oppress the Palasinians and take their land, which causes more violence and so on. As long as the US media is willing to make a major event out of every bombing while ignoring Sharon's slow land grab this tactic will work for Sharon. It's like Sharon's demand that all violence stop before negotiations can be held to see if Isreal will stop taking Palastinian land or give any back. It's as if your brother was kicking you, and then demands that you stop punching him back before any talk about stopping the kicking can start. Jay
Post #43,086 by Ashton 6/20/02 8:54:29 PM Reply	Fantasy is a comfortable place to live. "Lock up all the drug dealers". Right. [Supply & Demand - one of the tenets of Murican Capitalist religion.] So now we have Pharm Chem Corps with ALL of the business instead of, what? 90% ? With thousand of clones of the actual Good stuff, from Dr. Feelgood IF "You are in pain" and can wheedle that Nice Rx. In the fantasy world, of course: all the Customers just say, "Shucks - guess I can't Do That anymore". And go home [3 bedroom Gothic - in the suburbs] to watch Beavis and InSync reruns on their 60" Tee Vee, eat Whoppers in their Navigators and prey.. of course. [No supply? OK - there's no demand now. Right.] Need I replace 'Drugs' ? with the equivalent scenario for, Religion A (says Religion B is Evil) Religion B (says Religion A is Evil) PLUS Group A has jobs, a place to live. Group B has few of either. Now we lock up the (today's crop of) Leaders. Peace, of the DisneyCorp-land sort, with flocks of tiny bluebirds and butterflies surrounding Bambi: Breaks Out. Never mind the small difficulty of ID-ing ANY of the players in the above scenarios, BTW. With Magic, the Good Fairy Makes It All Well. (And if anyone disagrees about what is 'Good' vs. what is 'Bad': Nuke 'Em) I feel a song coming on .... The Hills are alive with the sound of Muzak ...
Post #43,088 by Brandioch 6/20/02 9:25:45 PM Reply	Extrapolate. Exactly. As long as the ROOT conditions remain unchanged, killing the CURRENT leaders does nothing more than create opportunities for FUTURE leaders to arise. The only way THAT process will work is genocide. Think about it. We start shipping fertility drugs to Israel while wiping out all of the bad Arabs. I'm sure Israel wouldn't have a problem with selling us cheap oil.
Post #43,093 by Ashton 6/20/02 10:14:02 PM Reply	The trouble I note, in seeking 'root causes' is that -- -- whenever approaching that rarefied atmosphere, I notice forming in my nostrils.. the stench of MASSIVE LIES (I Guess that's it?) [~to.. a two-week dead vole in the unplugged fridge in a July, in Miami] We are (all) such Masters at selective data-taking, creation of filter matrices for what Does come in (even by those who kant spel eether wun). We have entire Industries (Marketing, Econ, 'Medicine' anyone?) whose main goal is that of - dissembling, obfuscating, creating new emotional Wants - no matter the consequences in time/place next. (And never: 'for Whom!') And they.. We! will say absolutely Anything IF: it will only Sell. All rationalized by 24/7 ad-created Imagery which is invariably ~ some synonym for "Progress" or the ever-Popular "Prosperity" ... well, for some. Not for all, of course. Not even for 'lots'. Just for a few folks what look, pray, prey - and think: a lot like umm (Me?) Pity that only a handful of little tykes tumble early-on to the BS being spoon fed with mothers milk. Seems that most of us get so accustomed to Ignorance is Truth .. Freedom is Slavery -- that by the time we survive Teen-hood: any idea of umm "looking for root Causes in that ol stimulus:response homo-sap behaviour": just evanesces. Never to be noticed again. One's first suit of clothes appears to forever banish such weird thoughts from mentation, as the slow crawl up the Appearances ladder teaches New ways of "saying what can sell". Only thing I've learned about 'root causes' for Sure - thus far - is that: damn Few, even amongst those who can mouth the nice-phrases: Ever Dare to follow intelligence to even One 'Root'. It's just too scary when (should that happen to Others too? I dunno) that smell of putrefaction begins that familiar gut-knot which you Know comes just before {nausea} .. Y'know? Ashton gotta.. go.. outside..
Post #43,131 by Brandioch 6/21/02 11:05:26 AM Reply	If I may add another level to that. Like arresting the drug users and letting the dealers and suppliers and smugglers go free. If you kill the suppliers, new suppliers will take their place. The price of death is the price that will be paid on the street. You can keep killing more and more, but, in the end, you'll just make it more profitable for the amount that does get through. Look at Bush's cocaine habit. With those millions, he can afford whatever the street price is. You have to address the DEMAND rather than the SUPPLY. The same in the mid-east. Look at the situations that are creating the terrorists. If you don't deal with the situations, you'll end up with a new crop of terrorists to take the place of the old ones.
Post #43,666 by wharris2 6/27/02 2:30:23 PM Reply	That's not the problem. they didn't get the leaders who are palnning the attacks. Like arresting the drug users and letting the dealers and suppliers and smugglers go free. When will we learn? When kids (okay, I grant you that many of the teenagers involved are only borderline kids, but there are kids doing it, too) blow themselves up in buses, killing a dozen people, I doubt very much wholesale slaughter of the so-called leadership would work. These things are happening far too much in a "take your own initiative" way. Yeah, someone is supplying the bombs and bomb materials. But they're probably being supplied by lower-level flunkies rather than the "leadership", and in any case by this point I'd bet there are sizable caches of bomb materials and kids who know how to use them anyway. Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
Post #43,110 by a6l6e6x 6/21/02 1:44:12 AM 6/21/02 1:46:16 AM Reply	Ignore dupe. Alex "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965) Edited by a6l6e6x June 21, 2002, 01:46:16 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #43,111 by a6l6e6x 6/21/02 1:44:38 AM Reply	Really? Read [link\|http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/21/international/middleeast/21SUIC.html?pagewanted=1\|this] in the NY Times. The piece gives some insight in what goes on in the minds of Palestinians. Sharon is busy creating more "martyrs". And quite deliberately too. It gives him a free hand to build that Greater Land of Israel. He works so hard to make sure there is no one to make peace with. That would mess up his plans. The death spiral not only continues, it is speeding up! Alex "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Post #43,084 by rsf 6/20/02 8:43:34 PM Reply	Obviously But D-Day didn't stop the Germans from launching a counter offensive in the winter either (i.e. The Battle of the Bulge). Ray

Welcome to IWETHEY!