OK, now I got you...

Post #42,901 by jb4 6/19/02 3:36:48 PM Reply	OK, now I got you... First, I didn't mean to belittle. I apologize for my tone. I simply misuderstood where you were coming from. Yes, the money you invest does come from the all-too-often underpaid sweat of one's brow. The point I thought you made was that your hard work was hard work for the benefit of the company whose stocks you were buying. this came from other parts of the thread, where we were talking about how profit from the company should return to those whose "hard" work" made the company happen (I hope you can understand my confusion...) That said: Or are you implying that money I make from work falls into one category, whilst any money I made from investment of that money falls into another. Sorta. Consider this: I enjoy the car game Blackjack (21, for those of you ont her other side of the pond). I've played in in Europe, where the house rules are substantially different. One of those differences is the concept of the "side bet". In Europe (Austria, anyway), onlookers are allowed (even encouraged) to place "side bets" on one's hand. The side bettors have no say (unless, of course, the player allows them to) in how the hand is played. They (the side bettors) simply go where the hand is hot, place their money down, and reap their rewards (or suffer their losses). Nobody makes them place a side bet (the players, of course, must make a bet, or they lose their position at the table); they can come and go as they please, and if they don't like hou you play your hands, they vote with their feet. Now, the money they make doing this spends just like any other money they make doing any other endeavor, but is it the same as the money they make actually sitting at the table? I don't think so. Do you see the analog? jb4 "I remember Harry S. Truman's sign on his desk. 'The buck stops here.' Strange how those words, while still true, mean something completely different today." -- Brandioch
Post #42,926 by ChrisR 6/19/02 6:05:49 PM Reply	Side bets First, I didn't mean to belittle. I apologize for my tone. No offense taken. I think I understand your argument and although we happen to be speaking in first person voices, the issues are played out on a much larger scale. I have no idea why I got into this discussion, other than to lay out a few scattered thoughts. where we were talking about how profit from the company should return to those whose "hard" work" made the company happen I've been on many sides of this equation. I've put intense effort into products that I poured sweat and blood into, was paid a decent wage, but ended up not sharing in any of the substantial amount of wealth generated. I've also been involved in development where I was paid a decent wage, but the companies ended up going broke in a big way but I didn't have to declare bankruptcy. The side bettors have no say (unless, of course, the player allows them to) in how the hand is played. They (the side bettors) simply go where the hand is hot, place their money down, and reap their rewards (or suffer their losses). Nobody makes them place a side bet (the players, of course, must make a bet, or they lose their position at the table); they can come and go as they please, and if they don't like hou you play your hands, they vote with their feet. Now, the money they make doing this spends just like any other money they make doing any other endeavor, but is it the same as the money they make actually sitting at the table? A good analogy, but the point where it breaks down is that the players at the table are being bankrolled. Sure there is a certain amount of side-betting that goes on once the player is given a stack of chips to play with, but those chips he's playing with are not his own - nor are they in control of the dealer (i.e. the employees). The game couldn't be played without the aide of a dealer donating his time and attention, but the dealer doesn't really have a say on either how much the players or side-betters should risk, nor does he share in the winnings (though some players are prone to leave a tip after a successful round).
Post #42,990 by jb4 6/20/02 9:19:03 AM Reply	I apparently didn't play at your casino... A good analogy, but the point where it breaks down is that the players at the table are being bankrolled. Sure there is a certain amount of side-betting that goes on once the player is given a stack of chips to play with, but those chips he's playing with are not his own - nor are they in control of the dealer (i.e. the employees). Are you talking about shilling (as a participle, not a monetary unit)? If so, let me assure you that when I was sitting at 3rd base at that table, the money I was playing with was most assuredly my own. (And since I play Basic Strategy, which was realtively unknown in Europe at the time, you can also be assured that many side bettors didn't particularly like how I played...until they started making money on my play). Of course, shilling is a time-honored tradition in casinoes; one must always be aware of that. I suppose that is also the case in the bizznez analog, where we're seing (more and more) indictments of brokers shilling a certain stock only to get kickbacks from the comapny involved (can you say "Enron"?...I knew you could...) jb4 "I remember Harry S. Truman's sign on his desk. 'The buck stops here.' Strange how those words, while still true, mean something completely different today." -- Brandioch
Post #43,048 by ChrisR 6/20/02 2:53:22 PM Reply	The analogy assumes... ...that the side betters and players are financially unrelated. What I'm saying is that the player is using chips that were supplied by what you consider the side betters. Because these investors have a "vested" financial interest in the chips being used by the player, the player is accountable for the strategy employed. Shilling may be illegal/unethical behavior in the said card game, but in the business world, the analogy breaks down, because the player (manager) is accountable to the financial backer (who may also happen to be doing side bets on their own). The only illegal behavior involved in the business world is if the stockholders use insider information in their side bets.

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