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New It is definitely not a "cop out". Them's the rules and every pilot knows it.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Somehow I don't think that the pilots are going to get the lion's share of the blame in these cases.
New heh. You don't know the FAA.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New Reuters today.
https://graphics.reuters.com/ETHIOPIA-AIRLINE-CONTROLS/0100916V1NZ/index.html

Much like tapping the brake pedal in a car to disengage cruise control, a sharp tug on the controls of older models of Boeing Co’s 737 used to shut off an automatic trim system that keeps the plane flying level, giving the pilot control.

But Boeing disabled the “yoke jerk” function when it brought out the 737 MAX, the latest version of its top-selling jet — and many pilots were unaware of the change, aviation experts told Reuters.

The difference may help explain why pilots struggled to keep their aircraft climbing after takeoff on two fatal 737 MAX flights less than five months apart that killed 346 people.

[...]


Yeah, sure, it's the pilots' fault.... Not.

:-/

Boeing made a conscious decision to sell the MAX 8 as a simple evolution of the 737 so that the FAA wouldn't require extra training, certifications, etc., that a "new" plane would require. Boeing's management decisions killed hundreds of people.

Not the pilots.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I'll make you a bet.
I don't really disagree with your conclusions. Boeing screwed the pooch in a cynical effort to bring more value to the shareholders and avoid losing market share to Airbus. But, keeping in mind what the regulations say are the pilot's responsibilities and my own limited experience with the FAA and the NTSB, I'll wager that in roughly two years time when the NTSB submits its final report, there will be a "Probable Cause and Findings" section that reads, roughly, something like ...

The pilot's failure to maintain pitch control during take-off causing the aircraft to impact the ground/sea. Contributing to the incident was the pilot's unfamiliarity with the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, specifically how to disable the system when it began to operate in manner not designed.

Want to bet?
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
Expand Edited by mmoffitt March 25, 2019, 11:01:59 AM EDT
New Naah. We'll see.
New ..think that: *THIS* time, there's been far too much Ink properly flung
When the very fact of MCAS' existence is kept hidden--that plus the end-run around 'IT'S A NEW PLANE': to throw in pilot error should get them laughed-off, ultimately perhaps leading to an authentic re-do of the FAA --> on down (?) Even the vox populi (those interested) have surprisingly often gotten the simple logic Rite (!)

(Yeah, of course: any sane process outcome would be as shocking as Drumpf acknowledging--same courage-level as Shrub--mistakes were made).

George Carlin, Kurt V., Jonathan Swift ... wtf are? you when...
New The FAA's mission is schizophrenic.
Half their responsibility is regulation and safety. The other half is promoting aviation. In practice, they're largely cheerleaders for and defenders of the airlines.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New So promotion is the goal, safety is a tactic
--

Drew
New Yes, of course, Polly.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
New ..as Murican as cyanide-laced *Apple Pie, innit?
..with a Smiley-face in whipped-cream on top ... (I can see it now!)

ADVERTISING, the entrepreneur's perpetual-propaganda. It has infected us all, by osmosis even from from the tyke days' exposure to radio jingles.. ...

"Rinso™ -- WHITE! then, next: IVORY™ -- 99 and 44/100 percent pure! It Floats!
SEE: after n-decades ... that inculcated crap finds a gaggle of neurons and *permanently*-makes 'em, UNerasable!

Rest case: Murica lurves its special brand of early-on Brainwashing.
(Even before The Cheney Shogunate made such torture minuscule compared to ITS agenda)



ULP! ... Jeez, if I'd spawned a successor or three decades ago: I might have.. {??} had the foresight to shield them from this premeditated mind-rot-via-jingles ... might. have. crap shoot That foresight..

Now with Intarweb 24/7/365: all-the-shit in ALL the homo-sap egregor: is permanently available to the tiniest (child/adult) minds ..forming THEIR-mindsets.
Only Hope I ken: is that *brian-research shall enable us all to ackshully ERASE stuff from those murdered synapses 'n such..
* including our Own oTpys iwithn the mix :-)
New More from Reuters.
Reuters:

SINGAPORE (Reuters) - U.S. and European regulators knew at least two years before a Lion Air crash that the usual method for controlling the Boeing 737 MAX’s nose angle might not work in conditions similar to those in two recent disasters, a document shows.

The European Aviation and Space Agency (EASA) certified the plane as safe in part because it said additional procedures and training would “clearly explain” to pilots the “unusual” situations in which they would need to manipulate a rarely used manual wheel to control, or “trim,” the plane’s angle.

Those situations, however, were not listed in the flight manual, according to a copy from American Airlines seen by Reuters.

The undated EASA certification document, available online, was issued in February 2016, an agency spokesman said.

It specifically noted that at speeds greater than 230 knots (265mph, 425kph) with flaps retracted, pilots might have to use the wheel in the cockpit’s center console rather than an electric thumb switch on the control yoke.

EASA and the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) ultimately determined that set-up was safe enough for the plane to be certified, with the European agency citing training plans and the relative rarity of conditions requiring the trim wheel.

In the deadly Lion Air crash in October, the pilots lost control after initially countering the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), a new automated anti-stall feature that was pushing the nose down based on data from a faulty sensor, according to a preliminary report from Indonesian investigators released in November.

The flight conditions were similar to those described in the EASA document, a source at Lion Air said. The source said that training materials before the crash did not say the wheel could be required under those conditions but that Boeing advised the airline about it after the crash.

Boeing declined to comment on the EASA document or its advice to Lion Air, citing the ongoing investigation into the crash.

Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry, France’s BEA air accident authority and the FAA have all pointed to similarities between the Lion Air crash and an Ethiopian Airlines disaster this month. But safety officials stress that the Ethiopian investigation is at an early stage.

‘NOT PHYSICALLY EASY’

The crashes have also heightened scrutiny of the certification and pilot training for the latest model of Boeing Co’s best-selling workhorse narrowbody, now grounded globally.

In the EASA document, the regulator said simulations showed the electric thumb switches could not keep the 737 MAX properly trimmed under certain conditions, including those of the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crashes, according to the Indonesian preliminary report and a source with knowledge of the Ethiopian air traffic control recordings.

[...]


(Emphasis added.)

It wasn't the pilots' fault.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Um, yeah, it kinda was.
The words "the pilots lost control" in your post is very telling. I maintain that will be the primary cause of the accident in the final report. I'll eat my hat if something like, "The pilot failed to maintain proper pitch attitude during take-off" isn't in the final report.

I'm as disappointed and angry at Boeing as you (or anyone else). It sickens me that their concern for their shareholders caused them to break with their long tradition of building their aircraft in such a way that their pilots could always fly them; and instead adopted the widely popular, fatally flawed position that "tech is better at everything" that Airbus has always held.
bcnu,
Mikem

It's mourning in America again.
     IT.-related [Boeing]: re s/ware bug + bad pointer veils actual cause + Addendum "How To Run 2.5 yrs: - (Ashton) - (43)
         Unrolled Trevor Sumner thread. - (Another Scott) - (6)
             Just now, too: AXIOS gives a 'cubic-closest-packing'/incisive Summary of the 'issues' (an hour ago) - (Ashton) - (3)
                 Won't matter - (drook)
                 not really drumpf's fault he was not president in 2011 - (boxley)
                 Regulation is only part of the FAA's mandate. - (mmoffitt)
             Re: On LionAir, pilots were never even told about the MCAS - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                 You posted a pic of that module.. which prompted moi to stare at it for some. time. - (Ashton)
         NewYorker article gets it right re. techno and the legal investigation(s) in transit - (Ashton) - (1)
             But "Bidness is SO much better at *EVERYTHING* than Government Bureacrats", no? -NT - (mmoffitt)
         They fought MCAS "more than two dozen times" and it never occurred to them to turn it off? - (mmoffitt) - (27)
             I don't follow that conclusion. - (malraux) - (26)
                 Read the FARs. - (mmoffitt) - (24)
                     Every plane ever made is 100% tech -NT - (drook) - (3)
                         Also: vaccines for preventable childhood diseases that are otherwise miserably fatal - (pwhysall)
                         Should have been more clear: Information Technology (i.e. computers and software) -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                             Which are used to design all of these wonders of the modern age. -NT - (malraux)
                     Meh. - (Another Scott) - (14)
                         "Airline mechanics tried four times since Oct. 26" says it all: how Know they had Fixed it, then? - (Ashton)
                         It is definitely not a "cop out". Them's the rules and every pilot knows it. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (12)
                             Somehow I don't think that the pilots are going to get the lion's share of the blame in these cases. -NT - (Another Scott) - (11)
                                 heh. You don't know the FAA. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (10)
                                     Reuters today. - (Another Scott) - (9)
                                         I'll make you a bet. - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                                             Naah. We'll see. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                             ..think that: *THIS* time, there's been far too much Ink properly flung - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                 The FAA's mission is schizophrenic. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                     So promotion is the goal, safety is a tactic -NT - (drook) - (2)
                                                         Yes, of course, Polly. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                         ..as Murican as cyanide-laced *Apple Pie, innit? - (Ashton)
                                             More from Reuters. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                 Um, yeah, it kinda was. - (mmoffitt)
                     ? - (malraux) - (4)
                         Did I even mention "root cause"? No. I did not. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                             so how do you feel about self driving tractor trailers? :-) -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                 Have those all you want. After I'm dead. ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                             Then be more clear with what you're saying. - (malraux)
                 This logic is impeccable. Or I ain't got no cuth at all. Thanks for Beautiful concision! - (Ashton)
         More more from Reuters - (Another Scott) - (5)
             If this turns out to be true... - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                 Boeing has taken responsibility for both crashes now - (malraux) - (3)
                     BS - (crazy) - (2)
                         That's the part I don't get - (drook)
                         Yeah... - (Another Scott)

Come inside!
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