Post #427,996
3/20/19 12:12:54 PM
3/20/19 12:12:54 PM
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I don't follow that conclusion.
Any system that requires you to know how to turn it off so it doesn't kill you and your passengers is at fault if someone fails to turn it off and it kills you and your passengers.
If the system wasn't faulty, they wouldn't have died. Hence responsibility. It's the root cause of the accident, not the pilots' failure to turn it off.
In other words, you don't fix a system like this by training people to turn it off. That's papering over the problem. You fix it by making sure it doesn't kill people either way.
Only if it's not possible to fix it and it's saving more people than it's killing, but if that's the solution then the root cause is the poor aerodynamics of the plane in the first place.
This is pretty basic RCA.
Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
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Post #428,000
3/20/19 2:32:53 PM
3/20/19 2:32:53 PM
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Read the FARs.
It's the pilot who has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight.
I think our disagreement here is really the different attitudes we have about tech in general. You love it. I don't trust it and think, overall, it is a net negative on society.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #428,005
3/20/19 3:59:28 PM
3/20/19 3:59:28 PM
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Every plane ever made is 100% tech
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Post #428,014
3/21/19 3:10:24 AM
3/21/19 3:10:24 AM
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Also: vaccines for preventable childhood diseases that are otherwise miserably fatal
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Post #428,019
3/21/19 3:32:38 PM
3/21/19 3:32:38 PM
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Should have been more clear: Information Technology (i.e. computers and software)
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #428,031
3/21/19 5:30:44 PM
3/21/19 5:30:44 PM
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Which are used to design all of these wonders of the modern age.
Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
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Post #428,006
3/20/19 4:33:01 PM
3/20/19 4:33:01 PM
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Meh.
Bloomberg: As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.
That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.
The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.
The previously undisclosed detail on the earlier Lion Air flight represents a new clue in the mystery of how some 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction have been able to avert disaster while the others lost control of their planes and crashed. The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously been reported.
The so-called dead-head pilot on the flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor in the trim system that was driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize.
By contrast, the crew on the flight that crashed the next day didn’t know how to respond to the malfunction, said one of the people familiar with the plane’s cockpit voice recorder recovered as part of the investigation. They can be heard checking their quick reference handbook, a summary of how to handle unusual or emergency situations, in the minutes before they crashed, Reuters reported, citing people it didn’t name.
Lion Air spokesman Danang Prihantoro declined to comment on the role of a third pilot, saying, “All the data and information that we have on the flight and the aircraft have been submitted to the Indonesian NTSC. We can’t provide additional comment at this stage due the ongoing investigation on the accident.”
The Indonesia safety committee report said the plane had had multiple failures on previous flights and hadn’t been properly repaired.
Airline mechanics tried four times to fix related issues on the plane starting Oct. 26, according to the Indonesia preliminary report. After pilots reported issues with incorrect display of speeds and altitude in the two prior flights, workers in Denspasar, Bali, replaced a key sensor that is used by the Boeing plane to drive down its nose if it senses an emergency.
Flight data shows the sensor, called the “angle of attack” vane, which measures whether air is flowing parallel to the length of the fuselage or at an angle, was providing inaccurate readings after that.
However, the pilots on the harrowing Oct. 28 flight from Bali to Jakarta didn’t mention key issues with the flight after they landed, according to the report.
Their request for maintenance didn’t mention they had been getting a stall warning since about 400 feet after takeoff as a result of the faulty angle-of-attack sensor. It was still giving false readings the next morning on the flight that crashed, according to flight data.
[...]
After the Lion Air crash, two U.S. pilots’ unions said the potential risks of the system, known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS, hadn’t been sufficiently spelled out in their manuals or training. None of the documentation for the Max aircraft included an explanation, the union leaders said.
“We don’t like that we weren’t notified,’’ Jon Weaks, president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, said in November. “It makes us question, ‘Is that everything, guys?’ I would hope there are no more surprises out there.’’
The Allied Pilots Association union at American Airlines Group Inc. also said details about the system weren’t included in the documentation about the plane.
Following the Lion Air crash, the FAA required Boeing to notify airlines about the system and Boeing sent a bulletin to all customers flying the Max reminding them how to disable it in an emergency.
Why Indonesian Plane Crash Has Led to U.S. Lawsuits: QuickTake
Authorities have released few details about Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 other than it flew a “very similar” track as the Lion Air planes and then dove sharply into the ground. There have been no reports of maintenance issues with the Ethiopian Airlines plane before its crash.
If the same issue is also found to have helped bring down Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302, one of the most vexing questions crash investigators and aviation safety consultants are asking is why the pilots on that flight didn’t perform the checklist that disables the system.
“After this horrific Lion Air accident, you’d think that everyone flying this airplane would know that’s how you turn this off,” said Steve Wallace, the former director of the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration’s accident investigation branch.
The combination of factors required to bring down a plane in these circumstances suggests other issues may also have occurred in the Ethiopia crash, said Jeffrey Guzzetti, who also directed accident investigations at FAA and is now a consultant.
“It’s simply implausible that this MCAS deficiency by itself can down a modern jetliner with a trained crew,” Guzzetti said.
MCAS is driven by a single angle-of-attack sensor near the nose even though there are two of the sensors on the plane. Boeing is planning to alter the system to rely on both sensors to reduce the chances of a malfunction.
These crashes were the result of a systemic problem at Boeing - they wanted to sell the Max 8 as a simple update of the 737 when it wasn't. Saying "the pilot is always responsible" is a cop-out in something as complex as a plane like the Max 8. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #428,012
3/20/19 6:42:44 PM
3/20/19 6:42:44 PM
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"Airline mechanics tried four times since Oct. 26" says it all: how Know they had Fixed it, then?
And .. did these Repairers have the plane flown just after each? ANY? of these--thus: RECURRENT ERRORS. (My lore says that repair mechanics Don't Fly-their-repair); but Pilots COULD. Why is this not mandatory re a repair tag which underscores that "the aircraft was in PERIL" Also, I believe a catch-phrase in the basic design of every 'system' == mandates placing any such malfunction at the top of the Risk-List, signifying "triple-redundancy design" is mandated (or words to that effect).
Thanks for snaring this al punte evidence that: The previous experiences with pilots--of THAT airline--were clearly NOT passed-on (at all? or so concisely as to MISS the points learned?) As above, an after-repair flight, preferably after receiving the full-notes of that "third pilot" would have revealed that: their 'fix' did NOT repair/did not return the plane to safe 'service' ... but with only two/informed people aboard who would have been at risk. And this costs--THAT airline--some $$Quatloos.
Once Twice again, human perfidy--failure to adequately disclose--seems by itself--to be (another definition of 'root) cause of the chain of events.
If the full story of this-all fails to shake-up the "FAA"s of every country (and too: the fly-by-wire aficonadoes: hey we can save$$/hire bus-drivers) then: MONEY will still Rulez-over (all these lessons) Or is that a foregone conclusion (?)
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Post #428,034
3/22/19 8:44:53 AM
3/22/19 8:44:53 AM
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It is definitely not a "cop out". Them's the rules and every pilot knows it.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #428,035
3/22/19 10:38:15 AM
3/22/19 10:38:15 AM
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Somehow I don't think that the pilots are going to get the lion's share of the blame in these cases.
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Post #428,037
3/22/19 1:10:18 PM
3/22/19 1:10:18 PM
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heh. You don't know the FAA.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #428,045
3/22/19 4:38:41 PM
3/22/19 4:38:41 PM
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Reuters today.
https://graphics.reuters.com/ETHIOPIA-AIRLINE-CONTROLS/0100916V1NZ/index.htmlMuch like tapping the brake pedal in a car to disengage cruise control, a sharp tug on the controls of older models of Boeing Co’s 737 used to shut off an automatic trim system that keeps the plane flying level, giving the pilot control.
But Boeing disabled the “yoke jerk” function when it brought out the 737 MAX, the latest version of its top-selling jet — and many pilots were unaware of the change, aviation experts told Reuters.
The difference may help explain why pilots struggled to keep their aircraft climbing after takeoff on two fatal 737 MAX flights less than five months apart that killed 346 people.
[...] Yeah, sure, it's the pilots' fault.... Not. :-/ Boeing made a conscious decision to sell the MAX 8 as a simple evolution of the 737 so that the FAA wouldn't require extra training, certifications, etc., that a "new" plane would require. Boeing's management decisions killed hundreds of people. Not the pilots. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #428,077
3/25/19 9:26:24 AM
3/25/19 11:01:59 AM
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I'll make you a bet.
I don't really disagree with your conclusions. Boeing screwed the pooch in a cynical effort to bring more value to the shareholders and avoid losing market share to Airbus. But, keeping in mind what the regulations say are the pilot's responsibilities and my own limited experience with the FAA and the NTSB, I'll wager that in roughly two years time when the NTSB submits its final report, there will be a "Probable Cause and Findings" section that reads, roughly, something like ...
The pilot's failure to maintain pitch control during take-off causing the aircraft to impact the ground/sea. Contributing to the incident was the pilot's unfamiliarity with the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, specifically how to disable the system when it began to operate in manner not designed.
Want to bet?
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
Edited by mmoffitt
March 25, 2019, 11:01:59 AM EDT
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Post #428,080
3/25/19 10:51:04 AM
3/25/19 10:51:04 AM
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Naah. We'll see.
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Post #428,081
3/25/19 5:21:56 PM
3/25/19 5:21:56 PM
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..think that: *THIS* time, there's been far too much Ink properly flung
When the very fact of MCAS' existence is kept hidden--that plus the end-run around 'IT'S A NEW PLANE': to throw in pilot error should get them laughed-off, ultimately perhaps leading to an authentic re-do of the FAA --> on down (?) Even the vox populi (those interested) have surprisingly often gotten the simple logic Rite (!)
(Yeah, of course: any sane process outcome would be as shocking as Drumpf acknowledging--same courage-level as Shrub--mistakes were made).
George Carlin, Kurt V., Jonathan Swift ... wtf are? you when...
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Post #428,085
3/26/19 9:47:46 AM
3/26/19 9:47:46 AM
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The FAA's mission is schizophrenic.
Half their responsibility is regulation and safety. The other half is promoting aviation. In practice, they're largely cheerleaders for and defenders of the airlines.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #428,087
3/26/19 12:40:56 PM
3/26/19 12:40:56 PM
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So promotion is the goal, safety is a tactic
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Post #428,088
3/26/19 2:14:38 PM
3/26/19 2:14:38 PM
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Yes, of course, Polly.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #428,089
3/26/19 2:34:14 PM
3/26/19 2:34:14 PM
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..as Murican as cyanide-laced *Apple Pie, innit?
..with a Smiley-face in whipped-cream on top ... (I can see it now!)
ADVERTISING, the entrepreneur's perpetual-propaganda. It has infected us all, by osmosis even from from the tyke days' exposure to radio jingles.. ...
"Rinso™ -- WHITE! then, next: IVORY™ -- 99 and 44/100 percent pure! It Floats! SEE: after n-decades ... that inculcated crap finds a gaggle of neurons and *permanently*-makes 'em, UNerasable!
Rest case: Murica lurves its special brand of early-on Brainwashing. (Even before The Cheney Shogunate made such torture minuscule compared to ITS agenda)
ULP! ... Jeez, if I'd spawned a successor or three decades ago: I might have.. {??} had the foresight to shield them from this premeditated mind-rot-via-jingles ... might. have. crap shoot That foresight..
Now with Intarweb 24/7/365: all-the-shit in ALL the homo-sap egregor: is permanently available to the tiniest (child/adult) minds ..forming THEIR-mindsets. Only Hope I ken: is that *brian-research shall enable us all to ackshully ERASE stuff from those murdered synapses 'n such.. * including our Own oTpys iwithn the mix :-)
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Post #428,142
3/29/19 11:19:04 AM
3/29/19 11:19:04 AM
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More from Reuters.
Reuters: SINGAPORE (Reuters) - U.S. and European regulators knew at least two years before a Lion Air crash that the usual method for controlling the Boeing 737 MAX’s nose angle might not work in conditions similar to those in two recent disasters, a document shows.
The European Aviation and Space Agency (EASA) certified the plane as safe in part because it said additional procedures and training would “clearly explain” to pilots the “unusual” situations in which they would need to manipulate a rarely used manual wheel to control, or “trim,” the plane’s angle.
Those situations, however, were not listed in the flight manual, according to a copy from American Airlines seen by Reuters.
The undated EASA certification document, available online, was issued in February 2016, an agency spokesman said.
It specifically noted that at speeds greater than 230 knots (265mph, 425kph) with flaps retracted, pilots might have to use the wheel in the cockpit’s center console rather than an electric thumb switch on the control yoke.
EASA and the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) ultimately determined that set-up was safe enough for the plane to be certified, with the European agency citing training plans and the relative rarity of conditions requiring the trim wheel.
In the deadly Lion Air crash in October, the pilots lost control after initially countering the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), a new automated anti-stall feature that was pushing the nose down based on data from a faulty sensor, according to a preliminary report from Indonesian investigators released in November.
The flight conditions were similar to those described in the EASA document, a source at Lion Air said. The source said that training materials before the crash did not say the wheel could be required under those conditions but that Boeing advised the airline about it after the crash.
Boeing declined to comment on the EASA document or its advice to Lion Air, citing the ongoing investigation into the crash.
Ethiopia’s Transport Ministry, France’s BEA air accident authority and the FAA have all pointed to similarities between the Lion Air crash and an Ethiopian Airlines disaster this month. But safety officials stress that the Ethiopian investigation is at an early stage.
‘NOT PHYSICALLY EASY’
The crashes have also heightened scrutiny of the certification and pilot training for the latest model of Boeing Co’s best-selling workhorse narrowbody, now grounded globally.
In the EASA document, the regulator said simulations showed the electric thumb switches could not keep the 737 MAX properly trimmed under certain conditions, including those of the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crashes, according to the Indonesian preliminary report and a source with knowledge of the Ethiopian air traffic control recordings.
[...] (Emphasis added.) It wasn't the pilots' fault. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #428,143
3/29/19 11:34:37 AM
3/29/19 11:34:37 AM
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Um, yeah, it kinda was.
The words "the pilots lost control" in your post is very telling. I maintain that will be the primary cause of the accident in the final report. I'll eat my hat if something like, "The pilot failed to maintain proper pitch attitude during take-off" isn't in the final report.
I'm as disappointed and angry at Boeing as you (or anyone else). It sickens me that their concern for their shareholders caused them to break with their long tradition of building their aircraft in such a way that their pilots could always fly them; and instead adopted the widely popular, fatally flawed position that "tech is better at everything" that Airbus has always held.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #428,007
3/20/19 4:40:08 PM
3/20/19 4:40:08 PM
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?
1) Root cause is different than responsibility by fiat.
2) Next time I get an MRI I'll wiggle a toe for you.
Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
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Post #428,020
3/21/19 3:43:17 PM
3/21/19 3:43:17 PM
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Did I even mention "root cause"? No. I did not.
What I did say: Again, I'm not apologizing for Boeing. This was obviously a piss poor system design. But, and this is a crucial but, the system itself was not responsible for these aircraft incidents. If I had to identify a "root cause" I would say the obvious, "The root cause of the accident was over reliance upon tech and under reliance upon piloting skills."
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #428,021
3/21/19 3:49:26 PM
3/21/19 3:49:26 PM
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so how do you feel about self driving tractor trailers? :-)
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
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Post #428,027
3/21/19 4:55:23 PM
3/21/19 4:55:23 PM
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Have those all you want. After I'm dead. ;0)
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #428,030
3/21/19 5:29:46 PM
3/21/19 5:29:46 PM
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Then be more clear with what you're saying.
Because that's how that reads when you're talking to people who aren't pilots and don't live the FARs.
Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
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Post #428,011
3/20/19 6:02:04 PM
3/20/19 6:02:04 PM
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This logic is impeccable. Or I ain't got no cuth at all. Thanks for Beautiful concision!
btw /me lurves Root Cause Analysis ... it may be the shortest TLA with the LARGEST importance, as it encapsulates the Aim--> of every after-accident program. Or that 'investigation' is pure unfumigated shit. (Being a 'technologist' never DID mean that: you must turn-off your lifetime of experience) ..nor eschew re-Framing [hate that word] of what it is you {increasingly suspect} is approaching Root, as you burrow down your own check-list.
aka Seiberling discovered the vulcanizing-effect upon (natural) rubber, when he accidentally spilled some on a stove. Archimedes-in-bathtub etc. Winners both.
Eureka!!
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