Post #426,738
12/12/18 8:51:43 AM
12/12/18 8:51:43 AM
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Pence is no prize. And might, $DEITY help us, actually be worse.
bcnu,
Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #426,739
12/12/18 9:24:50 AM
12/12/18 9:24:50 AM
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Yes, but ...
Silver lining time here. He won't be operating with a Republican House. As long as the Dems are disciplined (stop laughing) Pence will be limited to Executive Orders and judicial appointments. The EOs can all be unwound by the next president, and Trump is already rubber stamping the judges from the Federalist Society so I don't see how Pence would be worse in that regard. PS: While trying to remember the name of the org providing his list of judges, I stumbled across this snake pit. The comment section provides a decent collection of who to drop from my Christmas card list.
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Post #426,740
12/12/18 10:39:18 AM
12/12/18 10:39:18 AM
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Pence is evil....
...but he's almost certainly a better administrator than Trump, and would at least preside over a functional (if eeeeeeeevil) government.
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Post #426,741
12/12/18 11:37:08 AM
12/12/18 11:37:08 AM
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Here's the thing about evil
Before I start, I should mention that I'm trying really hard not to go for the "lawful evil vs. chaotic neutral" framing that keeps trying to force its way into my head.
I think Pence would be much more effective at implementing (most of) what Trump claims to support, especially the glaring dog whistle: Make America Great White Again. And for most of the country that would be an improvement. (Stand by for caveats before blowing a seal.)
Pence sees himself as a decent man, who wants the best for other decent men. He just doesn't consider non-whites to be real men, so they don't count. And of course women aren't men, and neither are gays or trannnies. (I wonder what he calls them?)
Suppose that view of him is accurate, what would it mean?
Domestically he would favor policies that advantage white males over minorities and women. But as I said in my last post, with a Democratic House he would be limited to EOs and judicial appointments.
Internationally he would favor policies that favor the U.S. against other countries. Which he should do, to an extent. And he wouldn't antagonize our allies and embarrass his own State Department, which has to be an improvement. He is hawkish on international relations, but not in any extravagant ways that I've seen.
In short, he is focused evil. The things about him that are most troubling are domestic issues that he wouldn't have much direct control of. He'd be a nightmare if he had a Republican Congress, but now? It would be a bad couple of years, but reversible.
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Post #426,742
12/12/18 11:47:48 AM
12/12/18 11:47:48 AM
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Don't forget the cabinet.
We are seeing right now what kind of damage even ass clowns can do. Effective administrators with that backing would be much worse.
This is why I waffle on booting Trump. He's a nightmare and no mistake, but he's so incompetent that a lot of the nightmare is just bluster. Pence would be capable of implementing things professionally (and quietly!) that Trump simply can't manage to do because he's such a fail whale when it comes to how government works.
On the other hand, Pence would hopefully get the Republicans back towards more rule of law than blindly supporting an autocrat like they do now.
On the gripping hand, a "successful" President Pence would be harder to beat in 2020 with what looks to be a weak Democratic field, with a lot of people so relieved that Trump was gone that they'd go back to voting their inertia instead of voting like they did in the midterms. Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
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Post #426,743
12/12/18 12:09:19 PM
12/12/18 12:09:19 PM
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That could shoot them in the foot
From what I can see the issue he cares most about is abortion. If a President Pence gets traction on rolling that back I expect a pink wave in 2020.
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Post #426,744
12/12/18 1:34:52 PM
12/12/18 1:34:52 PM
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Never underestimate the Democratic Party's ability to clutch defeat from the jaws of victory.
They've been doing that since (at least) 1980. bcnu,
Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #426,748
12/12/18 3:35:56 PM
12/12/18 3:35:56 PM
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Pence is a known quantity.
A professional political commentator quietly admitted to me a few years ago that the world knows how to work with a man like Pence as president. Trump has had to be talked down off the ledge of war at least once, possibly more, for instance.
Wade.
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Post #426,777
12/14/18 8:46:26 AM
12/14/18 8:46:26 AM
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Certainly. But that's not the real problem, is it?
An older good friend of mine is fond of pointing out that, "No matter how you want to define intelligence, half the people are below average." I think that, in a nutshell, is what's happened in Western Democracies of late. The below average crowd have finally flexed their muscles in the elections in Western Democracies. bcnu,
Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #426,778
12/14/18 9:14:49 AM
12/14/18 9:14:49 AM
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Dangerous thinking
That's not too far from saying, "If they were smarter they'd agree with me."
It's possible for intelligent people to see all the same things as you and still reach different conclusions.
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Post #426,781
12/14/18 12:18:06 PM
12/14/18 12:18:06 PM
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I've been saying since I was 26 years old (that's 33 years now)...
The fundamental problem is that too few people can follow a modus ponens argument. bcnu,
Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #426,798
12/15/18 9:31:49 PM
12/15/18 9:31:49 PM
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This is part about what troubles me…
in discussions of “media bias.” Is there such a thing? Of course there is. The New York Times, for example, has had a hate-on for the Clintons since 1992. The imbalance in their 2016 coverage of the two contenders has been documented ad nauseam. Implicit in these criticisms, whether they come from the left or the right, is the speaker’s stance: “Of course, I, with my superior powers of discernment, can see right through these pathetic attempts to frame the narrative, but most of the citizenry, or should I say sheeple, are weaker-minded than I, and frankly ought to be protected from these shamelessly slanted stories.” It’s not too far from that to “fake news!” and from that to this. cordially,
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Post #426,806
12/15/18 10:59:39 PM
12/15/18 10:59:39 PM
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back in the old days when owning a printing press was considered a dangerous profession
the news folks did defend themselves against violence. Looks like those times are back. Maybe add a shooting course to a journo degree? "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
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Post #426,838
12/18/18 1:48:59 PM
12/18/18 1:48:59 PM
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That's dangerous thinking.
You're not seriously suggesting, are you, that the reason we disregard anything reported on Fox News until confirmed by a more reputable source is solely on account of our own biases? Or that we are to give equal weight to a discussion on climate change to the scientist and admitted non-scientist lest we be accused of bias? In short, you are not, are you, arguing that Fake News and Actual News are merely the manifestations of the observer? bcnu,
Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #426,841
12/18/18 3:08:28 PM
12/18/18 3:08:28 PM
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Or it might be simply that, the %uninformed.. on down to %pig-ignorant of The Consumers
of these Services--as we speak--is such a drag on catalyzing actual thought that: even the more articulate, educated Reporters
(were there more of these) would still ..have a tough row to hoe.
Now throw in the bias of the Owners-of-the-presses, their Oil-portfolios for just one ... and what do we get?
Wish I could find the long-ago Frank & Ernest comic (that grungy pair of master quippers) wherein:
A big pot is simmering on the rickety stove.
Big sign over pot: Do Not Stir the Soup
Customer asks ~ Why not?
Ans: Because, Sir.. you would not like what you would see.
And that's how we got custom what-would-you-Like-us-to-say? Newsfotainment, innit?
(And That's why ..there remains so little Hope.)
And.. ^THAT-all^ is why those scaffolds must-be-Built: for service in 2019; 'sabout TIME that
..there comes some Good-real-News ..lest both the auto-seppuku-rate and the Meth-usage hit "ex dx dx"
[Thence --> playing the hymn Sleepers Awake! shall fall upon dumber/deafer ears and ..well, we Know.]
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Post #426,849
12/19/18 12:36:56 PM
12/19/18 12:36:56 PM
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Re: That's dangerous thinking.
You're not seriously suggesting, are you, that the reason we disregard anything reported on Fox News until confirmed by a more reputable source is solely on account of our own biases? No. Nor indeed do I regard the imputation as a serious construal of my comment. cordially,
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Post #426,784
12/14/18 2:13:24 PM
12/14/18 2:13:24 PM
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George Carlin said it best
Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous.
- - - Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar" 1897
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