Indictment or impeachment?

Post #423,815 by rcareaga 5/22/18 2:39:42 PM 5/22/18 2:39:42 PM Reply	Indictment or impeachment? Seen elsewhere, in a discussion of whether a sitting president be indicted, this hypothetical question: Can Donald Trump walk outside of the White House, point a revolver at the nearest child, and shoot her in the head with CNN cameras recording? And still be immune from arrest/indictment? Some of the short-fingered vulgarian’s more ardent partisans appear to believe that his legal immunity (and of course, his pardon authority) is absolute, and that the only constitutional remedy even in this event would be impeachment in the House (presumably following investigation, lengthy hearings in the Judiciary Committee, etc) and conviction in the Senate (would that be a sure thing? Who knows?). There’s a (marginally) more nuanced view that presidential immunity extends only to actions performed in the course of official duties. In the event that the forty-fifth president is ever moved to stroll out onto Pennsylvania Avenue and commit urchinicide, it seems to me that his best bet would be to choose the right tyke: something Hispanic, I think, male, thirteenish (get it?), sullen and unphotogenic. Tats a plus. Undocumented would be DREAMy. He could frame this as a bold act of protecting the border. Giuliani could argue that at most the president could be charged with “cruelty to animals.” And of course, there is always the presidential pardon. God, what a fucking roller coaster ride this is. Still. What do people make of the arguments for immunity? And can we doubt that most of those who hold this position would fervently advance its contrary had the Dread Butch Hillary prevailed in the Electoral College? cordially,
Post #423,818 by Another Scott 5/22/18 3:13:02 PM 5/22/18 3:13:02 PM Reply	"The Constitution is not a suicide pact." - Justice Robert Jackson. https://supreme.findlaw.com/legal-commentary/the-clich-that-the-constitution-is-not-a-suicide-pact.html There comes a time when common sense has to apply. None of our rights guaranteed by the Constitution are absolute. The same holds, it seems obvious to me, for any claim of Presidential immunity. FWIW. 168 days to go. We can't get distracted from the fact that we need to do everything we can to win the elections this fall. If we do that, then all the rest will fall into place and we'll get back on the road to something approaching a sensible course. Cheers, Scott.
Post #423,826 by rcareaga 5/22/18 6:14:04 PM 5/22/18 6:14:04 PM Reply	Might not be a suicide pact, but… could it be a straitjacket? Certainly the assumption that the “norms” would be preserved has been weaponized and turned against us. If for whatever reason—insufficient turnout, social media manipulation, gerrymandering, voter suppression, actual hacking of registration/tallying servers, or Russian ratfucking NSPF—things go sideways in November, “all the rest will not* fall into place.” Indeed, although I respect your sunny spirits generally, I do not believe that the rest will ever fall back into place. The election of 2016 has locked a door behind us. We’re never getting “back on the road.” Of the roads before us, some will lead to better or worse destinations than others, but none will get us to where we might have imagined two years ago. cordially, *When I first joined the International Division at FCT&D back in the day, this country used a tariff code at odds with that of the rest of the world, finally giving this up in the late eighties. One of the provisions within various categories was “NSPF”—“Not Specially Provided For.” It’s long gone from tariff nomenclature, but it has endured as a major meme in my own personal filing system.
Post #423,827 by dmcarls 5/22/18 7:26:15 PM 5/22/18 7:26:15 PM Reply	Well, you're right about that >> Of the roads before us, some will lead to better or worse destinations than others.. "...If he was to be prosecuted while in office, so too would every president who follows..." https://blog.simplejustice.us/2018/05/22/katyals-not-too-practical-indictment/
Post #423,828 by rcareaga 5/22/18 8:16:33 PM 5/22/18 8:16:33 PM Reply	I take the argument seriously A future president could be indicted by his political enemies for jaywalking. Or for a blowjob. Such a prosecution would be, has been, frivolous. But what about murder? What about conspiring with multiple foreign powers to subvert and distort popular democracy? How can we address this without, indeed, making subsequent officeholders vulnerable to merely politically-motivated indictments? We need a rational system that establishes a threshold that oral sex does not cross and treason does. How that’s done, I cannot tell you. cordially,
Post #423,830 by boxley 5/22/18 9:52:32 PM 5/22/18 9:52:32 PM Reply	I actually think you might take it seriously But what about murder? What about conspiring with multiple foreign powers to subvert and distort popular democracy? on your example, walking out of the whitehouse shooting a small child in front of the cameras (assuming that no Secret Service Agent wouldn't take it away from him, likely in my opinion.) Soon to be president Pence would invoke the incapacity clause and a slam dunk would ensue. Could the president be indicted in a court of law for treason? Yes if the evidence was very clear, very convincing and without exculpatory evidence, since such a trial would incapacitate the president soon to be president pence would again swiftly invoke the incapacity clause. However, it has to be more than supposition, circumstantial evidence and hearsay. An example was the dead brutch hillary email server. President Obama swore that the first he had heard of it was on the news but he was emailing her on the dam thing. Now we all know that according to the fbi she was very careless having classified information on it but didnt really mean it and well she is a democrat after all. Ok, so other people lose their jobs, go to jail for much lesser offenses but ok, thats the way it works in that world. Now for the drumpster. Lots of noise, the feebs trying to pull an abscam on the peripheral players very early in the election cycle, lots of wheezing and gasping from the media, lots of haruphing and finger pointing by fox news but I dont see an indictment there yet. Certainly not enough to put a future president in jeopardy because 49% of the people dont like them. My 2 cents "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #423,831 by rcareaga 5/22/18 10:08:01 PM 5/22/18 10:08:01 PM Reply	Who the fuck are you, and what have you done w/boxley??
Post #423,834 by Ashton 5/22/18 11:14:46 PM 5/22/18 11:14:46 PM Reply	Indeed The Box wears multi-coloured threads, but do we not mainly pine for more frequent appearance, as here, in his best Livery? aka ~~Hyde/Jekyll~~ The Box/a solid, machined cube of W? (er, Tungsten, that is.)
Post #423,832 by drook 5/22/18 10:32:54 PM 5/22/18 10:32:54 PM Reply	Nit ... but he was emailing her on the dam thing ... Do you generally have any fucking clue what server someone is receiving your email on? -- Drew
Post #423,835 by Ashton 5/22/18 11:19:42 PM 5/22/18 11:19:42 PM Reply	Thanks for stating that Obvious-ity which moi hadn't copped-to. Either. {sigh}
Post #423,836 by boxley 5/22/18 11:52:49 PM 5/22/18 11:52:49 PM Reply	yes brobox@hq.dhs.gov goes to the emaii server at work box@netscrape.net does not go to an gummint email server "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #423,911 by crazy 5/25/18 9:01:01 AM 5/25/18 9:01:01 AM Reply	Wrong question Does a typical user know? And if course the answer is no.
Post #423,930 by boxley 5/25/18 7:06:16 PM 5/25/18 7:06:16 PM Reply	both of the users pres and sec state were specifically told to check that and why "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #423,935 by hnick 5/26/18 9:36:28 AM 5/26/18 9:36:28 AM Reply	Do either have the attention span of a may fly? "Religion, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable." ~ AMBROSE BIERCE (1842-1914)
Post #423,838 by mmoffitt 5/23/18 11:49:53 AM 5/23/18 11:51:54 AM Reply	All of this is entertaining. But it leaves the real problem unaddressed. The problem is not Donald Trump. Nor is it even his idiotic, dangerous, oligarchical policies. If he (and Pence, Ryan, McConnell, the Freedom Caucus too, for that matter) were immediately removed from office, the real problem would persist and maybe even become worse. Here's a sampling of the real problem. The crowd, not Trump. And lest you think that problem exists only in Indiana, here's more. I'm the first to admit Trump's election did not have the outcome I thought at my most optimistic it would have. Incredibly, I overestimated the decency of the American People and vastly underestimated American stupidity. But the Republican Party is a symptom of the real problem this country faces, not a cause. I have no answer for the real problem. I think finding an answer to that problem is akin to finding integers x and y, x not equal to y with 1 * x = y in the set of integers with the Euclidean metric. American democracy has failed. More than thirty years ago in an American History course I took umbrage at the professor referring to our political system as a democracy. He asked sternly, "Well, then, what would you call it?" I replied, "We have a somewhat democratic plutocracy." He nodded. I don't think we have even that left. I think, $DEITY help us, we might actually have a government that more accurately reflects the will of "the People". The State governments are overwhelmingly Republican. And yes, I'm aware Trump didn't win the popular vote, but he did win the Presidency. What's more, I think he has a better than even chance of winning re-election. And that is entirely a consequence of the real problem. Edit: clarify meaning of "set of integers". bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again. Edited by mmoffitt May 23, 2018, 11:51:54 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #423,841 by rcareaga 5/23/18 3:48:02 PM 5/23/18 3:48:02 PM Reply	problems is problems Had I come across this for the first time today, it would set my bullshit detector faintly chiming, because it seems so suspiciously apropos, and because folks on both sides of the political abyss are given to practicing ventriloquism on the Founding Fathers. Nevertheless, Benjamin Franklin actually did write this: I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such: because I think a General Government necessary for us, and there is no Form of Government but what may be a Blessing to the People if well-administered; and I believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a Course of Years and can only end in Despotism as other Forms have done before it, when the People shall become so corrupted as to need Despotic Government, being incapable of any other. Like you, mmoffitt, and notwithstanding my resolve after 1980 never to underestimate the fecklessness and depravity of the American electorate, I was blindsided in 2016. That year was, to adapt your own mathematical metaphor, an inflection point. From then and thence, we are fighting a rearguard action, and one that will more than likely end in the sacking of our “somewhat democratic plutocracy.” Your daughters will not enjoy the order that succeeds it. So it is, very likely, a doomed rearguard action. It’s still a battle worth waging, unless you feel that it makes no difference whether the Visigoths fire the city, pull down the statues, ravish the virgins tomorrow rather than five or ten years hence (“Why should I step out of the way of that speeding car? After all, I’m going to die eventually”). Yeah, Rome is corrupt, but these are fucking barbarians at the city walls. We need to fight, rather than sneering that the plebes deserve what’s coming to them. cordially,
Post #423,842 by Another Scott 5/23/18 3:53:50 PM 5/23/18 3:53:50 PM Reply	Comey and Vlad won't be working together in 2018, 2020, etc. Yes, too many people voted for Trump. But he won because of Comey, and because of the mischief that Vlad was stirring up with his Troll Farm. And because of the voter suppression stuff going on in critical areas. Those things will not be happening anywhere near as effectively this fall and going forward. Too many people - especially women - are pissed off and are fighting back. The GOP is dying and they know it. That's why so many of them are quitting rather than running for re-election. We can't give up and write the country off. Cheers, Scott.
Post #423,844 by rcareaga 5/23/18 4:39:13 PM 5/23/18 4:39:13 PM Reply	“We can’t give up” Nor did I suggest we do so. But your optimism appears misplaced. Having said this, I will feel immeasurably cheered if the coming years prove me wrong. cordially,
Post #423,853 by Another Scott 5/23/18 8:52:30 PM 5/23/18 8:52:30 PM Reply	538 - Special Elections Since Trump https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-states-where-democrats-are-overperforming-most-and-least-in-special-elections/ - as of March. One pattern that should worry Republicans is that Democrats appear to be running farthest ahead of their presidential candidates in red states. The top nine states on the list all voted for Trump in 2016, while eight of the bottom 12 voted for Clinton. That suggests that Democrats are indeed doing better in the conservative areas where they need to make 2018 inroads.8 Specifically, special election results suggest that the white-working-class-heavy Midwest — which broke heavily for Trump in 2016 — may not be lost for Democrats after all. Democrats’ 26.2-point overperformance in Iowa, for instance, may help Democrats pick off two House seats they would probably need for the House majority. And, as I mentioned, Democrats will have to defend several Senate seats in ruby-red states to have any chance of winning that chamber; these numbers should give them hope. The 21-point Democratic overperformance in Missouri, for example, should bolster the confidence of Sen. Claire McCaskill, one of the Democrats’ most endangered Senate incumbents. All the actual election results I've seen (as opposed to the recent opinion poll) thus far show this trend continuing. Will making it happen in November be a sure thing, or an easy thing? No. Am I often too optimistic? Yes. But I'm not as pessimistic as many here. YMMV. Cheers, Scott.
Post #423,845 by rcareaga 5/23/18 4:45:36 PM 5/23/18 4:45:36 PM Reply	Oh, wait Vlad won’t be working? Fuck, I think that Vlad’s army of trolls and hackers will be getting time-and-a-half as they toil in social media and interfere with voter data (“Sorry, LaShawn, but you don’t appear to be registered in this precinct. Next!”). cordially,
Post #423,847 by Ashton 5/23/18 5:31:37 PM 5/23/18 5:31:37 PM Reply	Once.. well-before-Recently: this sane analysis/prognosis might have flown, albeit "On a WIng and a Prayer" (WW-II meme-song re a plane "with one motor gone" etc.) BUT.. 1) My Gramma ... and all which her adolescent-presence came to Teach moi ..while growing from tykehood.. 2) The intellectual, emotional and visceral fallout from having seen LIVE/on B&W Tee Vee: the odious presence, mien, Corruption!! of Tailgunner Joe McCarthy (did I mention LIVE?) as inculcated a life-long [Beware!] re. every similar occurrence since that seminal Day --> on through ~ 5 minutes ago: [merely a trivial item, but See the implications] whereby the NFL Suits have decided to levy a Fine on any "kneeling commie-pinko (oft-Black)" Bastards/the Civil Rights applying to these pwned-minions daily feeding their avarice. By Corporate Fiat. 3) The ABJECT superstition-driven, cowardice-fueled Evidence of the Oh. Say. 'emptiness-within?' the psalm-singing torture-OK-ing, clinically-Iggerant vox populi ... (which even moi has encountered all-along these many decades) ... ... THESE ARE the Muricans (plurality-at-Least) as, all-along THEY HAVE BEEN. Just re-read that exact Ben Franklin quote: from a Sage worthy of that moniker. Even were Mueller et al to succeed Wildly=="just Next" ( ..which IS all you "could say with any conviction"), here in Murican *Ignorance Rulez Permanently land. And an National Epiphany!??? ..large-enough to matter? shall remain just as probable as.. FLASH! API, CNN, FoxNews ... ... "Herds of maddened-Unicorns have paraded down Pennsylvania Avenue.. massively crapping Gold Nuggets into the laps of their adoring mobs of followers" (now fighting over the larger nuggets.) er, QED: We HAVE met that Enemy: and it is The dis-U.S.A. Never-mind All Those Wishes/as perpetually feed the Fantasy-world that is our Exceptionalism™® ..but I could be wrong.. ... ..for some next Unicorn-ish Prague-Spring (?) Fool me once.. Twice.. ??? but. not. for. [n!]
Post #423,851 by boxley 5/23/18 6:29:01 PM 5/23/18 6:29:01 PM Reply	next time for president select a leader that a clown car full of clowns can't beat failing that someone who desnt have the negative numbers before they run in the high 30's low 40's nation wide "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #423,852 by Another Scott 5/23/18 8:41:31 PM 5/23/18 8:41:31 PM Reply	She's so unpopular that she got millions of votes more than he did...
Post #423,854 by boxley 5/23/18 8:53:57 PM 5/23/18 8:53:57 PM Reply	Think of how many the candidate would have gotten without the deep negatives "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #423,855 by Another Scott 5/23/18 9:02:06 PM 5/23/18 9:02:06 PM Reply	She's so horribly unpopular but she got more votes. Hmmm... If someone was better, they should have stepped up and beat her in nomination contest. Maybe the fact that no Democrat could beat her says something about her actual popularity (as opposed to what WND and places like that want you to believe). Bernie couldn't beat her (and wasn't (and isn't) a Democrat). MOM couldn't beat her. Who was supposed to beat her in this alternative universe? Why didn't they run and do it? Cheers, Scott.
Post #423,857 by rcareaga 5/23/18 10:13:27 PM 5/23/18 10:13:27 PM Reply	“Who was supposed to beat her in this alternative universe?” Over at the “Lawyers, Guns & Money” blog there’s a running joke to the effect that all the Democrats need to do to prevail in 2020 is to nominate Johnny Unbeatable. Simple, no? Wonder why they didn’t think of that earlier… cordially,
Post #423,858 by Another Scott 5/23/18 10:14:13 PM 5/23/18 10:14:13 PM Reply	Iknowright!!
Post #423,860 by boxley 5/23/18 10:18:52 PM 5/23/18 10:18:52 PM Reply	2020 how about someone not affiliated with Clinton cartel? "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #423,868 by Another Scott 5/24/18 12:16:26 AM 5/24/18 12:16:26 AM Reply	Name someone that you think would win. Quit blaming the Clintons.
Post #423,912 by mmoffitt 5/25/18 9:32:42 AM 5/25/18 9:32:42 AM Reply	He's right to blame the Clintons. They destroyed the Democratic Party. Remember this? As recounted by Bob Woodward in The Agenda: Inside the Clinton White House, Clinton vented to his advisers: "'Where are all the Democrats?' Clinton bellowed. 'I hope you're all aware we're all Eisenhower Republicans,' he said, his voice dripping with sarcasm. 'We're all Eisenhower Republicans here, and we are fighting the Reagan Republicans. We stand for lower deficits and free trade and the bond market. Isn't that great?'" http://www.newsweek.com/spending-freeze-obama-eisenhower-republican-71153 Yeah. It was fscking "great" all right. Great for Republicans everywhere. Not so great for Democrats, but they don't really count anyway because "where else are they going to go?" Right? Well they answered in 2016 and we all know how ugly that was. Fear not, though, because the same toadies in charge of the DNC are there still and will guarantee YAN Eisenhower Republican is the Democratic nominee. But, that too, is all right isn't it? Because PARTY! bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,913 by Another Scott 5/25/18 10:30:10 AM 5/25/18 10:30:10 AM Reply	Blah, blah, blah. Woodward is a hack. (Yes, I'm shooting the messenger.) Clinton left office 18+ years ago. The choice was between a mostly-sane party and an insane party, helped by the Russians, helped by a political hack at the FBI, helped by a press corps that was more interested in chasing clicks and eyeballs than informing the public, helped by people who insisted on believing the absolute worst lies about a decent person, helped by people who insisted on letting visions of some workers' led glorious revolution color their view of reality. Hillary got millions more votes than her opponents. She wasn't the problem. When's Bernie going to release his tax returns? Hmm? What does he have to hide anyway? Got any thoughts about that? ;-p But we've been through all this before. Do you have your "Charlotte Never!!" bumper sticker yet? Don't want to be the last one on the bandwagon - she's only got 32 years to go... :-/ Cheers, Scott.
Post #423,917 by mmoffitt 5/25/18 1:03:50 PM 5/25/18 1:03:50 PM Reply	He left 18 years ago, but his influence obviously didn't. What's "Charlotte Never" about? bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,919 by Another Scott 5/25/18 1:16:52 PM 5/25/18 1:16:52 PM Reply	Hillary's granddaughter. ;-)
Post #423,920 by mmoffitt 5/25/18 1:58:59 PM 5/25/18 1:58:59 PM Reply	Ah. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,874 by mmoffitt 5/24/18 9:06:00 AM 5/24/18 9:06:00 AM Reply	Uh, no. Maybe the fact that no Democrat could beat her says something about her actual popularity ... Still haven't learned the lesson, I see. What it does say is that the DNC is incredibly adept at pre-selecting a Neo-Republican candidate. See, for example, what a party insider had to say about that. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,878 by Another Scott 5/24/18 10:56:34 AM 5/24/18 10:56:34 AM Reply	We've been through all that. She won the nominating contest. Get over it. Name a Democrat who could have beaten her. Explain why that obviously better candidate decided not to run. Re-litigating the fact that Democrats preferred an actual Democrat is pointless. What's the path forward, with an actual human being, not zombie Eugene McCarthy or whoever, for 2020? Cheers, Scott.
Post #423,883 by malraux 5/24/18 1:48:03 PM 5/24/18 1:48:03 PM Reply	Potentially Uncle Joe Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #423,884 by Another Scott 5/24/18 2:02:39 PM 5/24/18 2:02:39 PM Reply	Ok. He's flamed out 2x before, but maybe he would do better this time. Yeah, he would be a credible candidate. Potentially. :-) Thanks. Cheers, Scott.
Post #423,887 by mmoffitt 5/24/18 2:34:44 PM 5/24/18 2:34:44 PM Reply	If not for Neil. That'd come back and bite him in the arse again. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,897 by malraux 5/24/18 3:51:16 PM 5/24/18 3:52:10 PM Reply	He wasn't an 8-year VP before. But yeah, he wouldn't have been a shoo-in vs. Clinton in 2015/6. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson. Edited by malraux May 24, 2018, 03:52:10 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #423,906 by boxley 5/24/18 6:49:36 PM 5/24/18 6:49:36 PM Reply	I think nother thinks that with Comey gone, russians warned SHE REALLY HAS A SHOT AT IT THIS TIME!!! which is why in another thread about Mitch Landreau he immediately started bemoaning the last election instead of looking to the future with new faces and places "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #423,907 by Another Scott 5/24/18 8:29:17 PM 5/24/18 8:29:17 PM Reply	You're mistaken.
Post #423,888 by mmoffitt 5/24/18 2:39:58 PM 5/24/18 2:39:58 PM Reply	Let me flip that back at you. She was such a popular Democrat that a non-Democrat damned near beat her in the Democratic Primary. How popular was she with Democrats again? I'm telling you, if the DNC chooses another one like her, they'll LOSE again. You're not claiming you know more about the inner workings of that campaign than Donna Brazile are you? Or are you just excusing the unequal treatment by the Party because Bernie Wasn't Even a Democrat!!!111ONE!1? bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,859 by rcareaga 5/23/18 10:16:43 PM 5/23/18 10:16:43 PM Reply	Re: next time for president select a leader that a clown car full of clowns can't beat Translated: “Next time for president select a leader that Bill Oxley doesn’t hate.”
Post #423,861 by boxley 5/23/18 10:31:15 PM 5/23/18 10:36:59 PM Reply	not me, I didnt vote It wasnt my candidate that couldnt beat a clown car full of ass clowns, it was yours and please stop waving the "but she got more votes" mantra. The country doesnt fucking care what CA or NY want which is why we have the electoral college. "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman Edited by boxley May 23, 2018, 10:36:59 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #423,864 by drook 5/23/18 10:56:18 PM 5/23/18 10:56:18 PM Reply	NY and CA aren't "the country", but WY is? -- Drew
Post #423,865 by boxley 5/23/18 11:35:00 PM 5/23/18 11:35:00 PM Reply	You want to expand on that statement? "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #423,867 by Another Scott 5/24/18 12:15:16 AM 5/24/18 12:15:16 AM Reply	What about Michigan? 16 EC votes. Just a for-instance. https://www.bridgemi.com/detroit-journalism-cooperative/botched-elections-missing-ballots-any-way-run-democracy “This is the perfect storm of incompetence and timing,” said Mark Brewer, Miller’s attorney and a former Michigan Democratic Party chairman. Wayne County Clerk Cathy Garrett declined comment, but longtime observers say the episode is the latest in a series of sloppy elections across Michigan that test voters’ faith, particularly in Wayne County. In the county’s largest city, Detroit, ballot irregularities have prevented full recounts in three consecutive mayoral elections. City Clerk Janice Winfrey faces a tough re-election campaign in the Aug. 8 nonpartisan primary next week because of a host of snafus from broken machines and missing ballots to last November’s national embarrassment, when more than half of Detroit’s 662 precincts were ineligible to be recounted because the number of ballots in voting machines didn’t match those in poll books. Trump won Michigan by 10,704 votes. Yeah, it's all because Hillary was such a horrible candidate. It had nothing to do with voting systems that were unable to accurately count the votes of every American who wanted to vote. Voter ID laws, inadequate funding of modern voting systems, etc., etc., are pushed by Republicans (and Michigan's state government is run by Republicans) and keep Democrats from voting just coincidentally. Amirite? (sigh) Just about every close state you could pick had issues like these. Just a coincidence. Yup. Cheers, Scott.
Post #423,871 by Ashton 5/24/18 6:56:35 AM 5/24/18 6:56:35 AM Reply	So then.. making a pretty good case for (..in the end) Plain-old Murican Incompetence (oft by-design) er. trumping all the alleged transistorized machinations. Just about every close state you could pick had issues like these. Just a coincidence. Yup. Well ... ... so very much Is Broken (list-wide in the dis-US) ..that's no longer hyperbolic! And THAT status pretty much bodes ill--no matter What is done next--in a mere decade or so, never mind: Six Months. Eh?
Post #423,872 by Another Scott 5/24/18 8:26:15 AM 5/24/18 8:26:15 AM Reply	Voting things are being fixed in many areas. MI is spending money, etc.
Post #423,875 by mmoffitt 5/24/18 9:09:23 AM 5/24/18 9:09:23 AM Reply	Will the next Democratic nominee actually go to Wisconsin? Just asking... bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,880 by Another Scott 5/24/18 10:57:35 AM 5/24/18 10:57:35 AM Reply	She got more votes than Feingold. Hmm....
Post #423,886 by mmoffitt 5/24/18 2:32:45 PM 5/24/18 2:32:45 PM Reply	Yep, she brought down Feingold with her. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,891 by Another Scott 5/24/18 2:54:56 PM 5/24/18 2:54:56 PM Reply	a > b [ magic happens here ] therefore a < b Is that it? ;-p
Post #423,894 by mmoffitt 5/24/18 3:40:25 PM 5/24/18 3:40:25 PM Reply	You think she was good for down-ticket candidates? </me falls over> bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,895 by Another Scott 5/24/18 3:44:09 PM 5/24/18 3:44:09 PM Reply	If she was so unpopular, why did she get more votes? Maybe Feingold was less popular. HTH!

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