Post #42,185
6/13/02 10:31:59 AM
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A great site I found on the WOT
[link|http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/War_On_Terrorism/War_On_Terrorism_page.html|I found this site,] after performing a Google search on "criticisms Howard Zinn", the author of A People's History of the United States to respond to an Orion post in the Open Forum (with the topic of whatever happened to morality and ethics in American business). Well, I went to this site and lost about two hours - didn't reply to Orion and found myself here.
:-)
Not only does Zinn continue to write, but the site also presents Chomsky and all those other un-American radicals... Must reading IMHO. For those not inclined to check out the root site as a matter of course, the table o' contents for thirdworldtraveler is [link|http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/|here.]
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
"As people assemble, civilization Is trying to find a new way to die,
But killing is really, merely scene changer,all men are bored, with other men's lives"
...
"We all know success, when we all find our own dreams
And our love is enough to knock down any walls
And the future's been seen, as men try to realize
The simple secret of the note in us all
in us all"
P. Townshend - Pure and Easy
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Post #42,189
6/13/02 10:55:08 AM
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1/100 a step above mere whining.
[link|http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/War_On_Terrorism/If_Not_War_What.html|Do they really think these are meaningful alternatives?]
I'm sorry, but those "ideas" are just plain insipid. I wonder why they didn't add appealling to an international committee of Leprechauns to help resolve our misunderstandings.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
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Post #42,211
6/13/02 12:34:11 PM
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the ideas arnt too bad
Present to the UN Security Council
except that Syria who home bases all terrorists including Al Qiada in the bekka valley and in Damascus proper is the current head of the UN security council
like a lot of good ideas they didnt exactly think it through.
thanx,
bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
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Post #42,221
6/13/02 1:09:55 PM
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I'm not sure that I can agree with that assessment
although I hope you will remember that I'm not exactly for sipping Coke around the campfire singing Kumbaya... I can't categorically dismiss all the proposed "solutions" as insipid. I think we have a need to find, as a culture, some sort of balance/equilibrium. In Ecclesiastes, it says there is a time for "every season under heaven, a time for war, a time for peace".
Specifically, I have had to find a way to temper my own anger to be able to separate out the valid criticisms of US foreign policy from the "whining" and propoganda. I still think it may be valid to get to some of the "root causes" (as Brandioch has been suggesting), as we move forward. I refuse to accept that any perceived injustice validates terrorist acts. History proves time and again that nonviolent revolutionaries (such as Jesus Christ, Ghandi, Martin Luther King) have much more lasting impact... (Palestinians, are you listening?)
I believe that we are at a point when we need to evaluate what direction our nation will go "after" the War on Terrorism. Military might is only one measure of the "greatness" of a country. Restraint is another. We need to discuss how can we improve conditions in the third world where there truly is so much suffering and perhaps some of it due to our greed and current SOP...
The entire world is watching how we conduct ourselves now. There is a general understanding of this war up to this point given the events of Sept 11. World opinion may even support an expanded war. But there will be a point, if we make one too many unilateral decisions, push the war "too far", that we will lose favorable world opinion. We will still live in "the world" after this war, so I do think world opinion matters. But we need to also think past this war for our children's sake. I, for one, would still like for my grandchildren to be standing around the campfire, hand in hand, drinking Cokes and singing Kumbaya...
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight
P. Townshend - Won't Get Fooled Again
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Post #42,232
6/13/02 1:39:48 PM
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Okay, what did I miss?
Subtract all the suggestions that involved handholding and talking about feelings and stuff, and what's left is several different ways of saying "let the UN deal with it." Let's face it. The kindest thing we can honestly say about the UN is that they're lame.
Organized terrorism is a reality. International law is a fantasy.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
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Post #42,240
6/13/02 2:38:38 PM
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Oh yeah, forgot #6, magical handouts. Poverty theory again.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
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Post #42,280
6/13/02 6:19:11 PM
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What I think you may be missing ...
is that this war should be a UN sanctioned War on Terror. It is quite clear to any astute observer that many of the Al Qaeda terrorists have made their way to Pakistan (and many were there prior to the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan). There is also an element of the Pakistani population that is anti-American / anti-1'st world. There is also a significant population of Pakistanis that are pro-American and anti terrorists. Do we declare Pakistan a terrorist state? If so, do we declare an all out war (as if there is a choice)? See, it gets a little bit more complicated where we go from here.
I believe that the UN should sanction and send in troups to the War on Terrorism as it is a worldwide problem and has always been. In fact, I agree with you entirely that the rule of law only works in countries that have rules of law or the people and the will to enforce it. It has to be a military excercise at that point. But I no longer think we should be working unilaterally. The UN is the perfect organization to become the "law" in countries without the rule of law - not U.S. As tragic as September 11'th was for us as Americans, we shouldn't forget that we are not the only victims of terrorists' attacks. We, as Americans, tend to care a lot more about attacks on us, but we are not the sole victims.
As to your criticism of the UN, it is probably fair... but the idea behind a "league of nations" was not a bad one and - not a toothless one. Maybe America could use this as an excuse to review the charter (plus Russia joining Nato) and put some teeth back into it and use the organization for what it was originally designed.
Until that time, we need to carry on the war, no doubt, no compromise. But, and this is my only point, we need to look to the future at some point - and, there's no time like the present...
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight
P. Townshend - Won't Get Fooled Again
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Post #42,283
6/13/02 6:44:48 PM
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Yeah, NATO might work.
But please everybody, let's not pretend this is a police action. We're not pulling over speeders here.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
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Post #42,355
6/14/02 1:01:13 PM
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I will add "police" to the list of words you do not know.
But please everybody, let's not pretend this is a police action. We're not pulling over speeders here. If there is a murder, whom do you call? If someone does a drive-by shooting at your house, whom do you call? If there is a bomb threat, whom do you call? Who is it that investigates and prosecutes mob bosses? And so on and so forth.
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Post #42,757
6/18/02 12:44:43 PM
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Can't get over this one
Those scenes of Arabs dancing in the streets get more offensive every day.
Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
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Post #42,268
6/13/02 5:26:55 PM
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Great site, indeed. Have you looked at "Middle East Watch"?
Alex
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
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Post #42,275
6/13/02 5:55:05 PM
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Haven't seen it yet. Is it hrw.com?
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight
P. Townshend - Won't Get Fooled Again
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Post #42,297
6/13/02 9:32:35 PM
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It is the first link at the site you referenced.
[link|http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Middle_East/MiddleEastWatch.html|Link.]
Alex
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." -- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
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