And that's the crux of the problem...

Post #4,214 by addison 8/8/01 11:55:05 AM Reply	And that's the crux of the problem... I certainly don't want to fund Jerry Faldwell, no matter what "good" he's doing. I don't want to fund Mother Theresa as she encourages massive overpopulation as the "will of God". I don't mind churches running various help centers - but I do mind if they think its their god-given (ha ha) right to convert/preach/insist on conversions, etc. (And not very surprisingly enough, most faith-based things don't want the government control that might come with such money). Even think about it like this - if you've got a non-profit, and a church group trying to do the same charity work, and the church doesn't have to meet the same requirements, and thus can work more cheaply, is that a "good" thing? Thorny, thorny issue, and one I kind of wish hadn't been brought up at all. Addison
Post #4,216 by bepatient 8/8/01 12:06:49 PM Reply	It is an issue...and a better example ...and a big one. But still...it points to the opposite of the rederick. One group paints the other as uncaring (evil has been used on these boards)...but if they offer a program that offers some level of assistance it can only be accepted if it entails a huge infrastructure to support it. Better example...Department of Education. Here we have a massive federal infrastructure costing MILLIONS to maintain. So someone comes along and notices that the best way to implement educational programs is at the state and local level....and that there's no need to a huge federal Department of Education. SO he happens to mention it in a campaign speech..you know...the fact that the fed could convert all of that money into local block grants for schools...etc...and he's dragged over the coals by the other side as someone who doesn't care about the future of America's children...even though his proposal would have given all the money straight to the children...it just didn't have the huge federal infrastructure tied to it anymore. Fiction? I think not. Dole opened his campaign with this idea. Um...er...well... I have no choice! [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #4,223 by mhuber 8/8/01 12:57:54 PM Reply	Let me get this straight There is political backing for a federal education burocracy, therefore I shouldn't object to my Catholic tax money being sent to Protestant churches. Will they be allowed to use my money to tempt people to abandon the True Faith in favor of their heresies, or will it be under rules that take God out of the churches? White guys in suits know best - Pat McCurdy
Post #4,247 by bepatient 8/8/01 3:32:25 PM Reply	Reading is fun...damental So far off the mark its not worth trying to fix Um...er...well... I have no choice! [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #4,258 by mhuber 8/8/01 3:59:21 PM Reply	OK, I'll try again: Discussion: Bush's faith-based scheme. Your point: people scuttled some block-grants for education, apparently for reasons having to do with love of Federal burocracy. (I think there may have been other concerns as well, but let's leave that alone for now.) My question: what's the connection? My observation: there are some people, including religious people, who have strong objections to the plan that have nothing to do with love of Federal burocracy. As far as my reading ability goes, my reading comprehension, as measured in both the SAT and ACT, back when the stadards were higher, is in the 99.5 percentile. If I don't get it, %99.5 of the college-bound population back when men were men, women were women, small furry animals were small furry animals, and stupid people skewed the scores by not taking the tests, isn't going to get it either. White guys in suits know best - Pat McCurdy
Post #4,260 by bepatient 8/8/01 4:06:52 PM Reply	ok...lets see... ...they object to the program...great...then they turn and call the Republicans heartless evil souls who care for noone...even though they've proposed things that could help...that just weren't agreed upon. See the similarity in the 2 examples now? Um...er...well... I have no choice! [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #4,266 by DonRichards 8/8/01 4:31:23 PM Reply	Who is this "they" you keep referencing? And when did "they" call the Reps "heartless evil souls who care for noone"? And what the hell does this have to do with the merits (or lack thereof) of Bush's faith based initiative? C'mon Beep, you're usually much better than this when knocking down straw men. Don't stoop to using them yourself. "When it crosses my mind to do something, I don't ask why, I ask why not. And usually there's no reason not to, so I just go ahead. It's given me the strangest collection of hats"
Post #4,273 by bepatient 8/8/01 4:46:50 PM 8/8/01 4:49:27 PM Reply	Ah...the innocent... Well, lets see...we started with [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=4172\|this comment]. And how would that general impression make its way to the UK. Possibly press coverage in both paper and online format...in places so oft cited here like [link\|http://www.salon.com\|Salon]. Campaign trail speeches...like Gore telling everyone that the Repo plan would keep the system charging more money to old people when he can get drugs for his dog cheaper. Nah, it can't be possible that there would be an organization hell bent on opposition by misinformation and scare tactics. Um...er...well... I have no choice! [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Aug. 8, 2001, 04:49:27 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #4,279 by DonRichards 8/8/01 4:54:26 PM Reply	Point taken and conceded. It seems to happen often around here. The arguing from different sides that ends up drifting to the point that the protaganists (and I include myself) are now not only arguing different sides, they are arguing different points as well. A meeting of the minds (to paraphrase M. Ghandi) would be a good idea. "When it crosses my mind to do something, I don't ask why, I ask why not. And usually there's no reason not to, so I just go ahead. It's given me the strangest collection of hats"
Post #4,304 by boxley 8/8/01 8:42:31 PM Reply	bada bing! I try and dont often succeed to think independantly but am hampered by the two sides democans and republicat who in twists best left on the fencing court swing around and around in a quest for talking points. thanx, bill Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves. Chuck Palahniuk
Post #4,286 by mhuber 8/8/01 5:18:50 PM Reply	No, I honestly don't Unless it is just that there was disagreement in both cases and that the sides treated each other the way politicians usualy do. White guys in suits know best - Pat McCurdy
Post #4,297 by bepatient 8/8/01 7:12:18 PM Reply	No...its not "usual"... ...and there is where the fault lies...its the way in which one political side treats the other...and is generally not reciprocated. And around here I expect to have noone recognize that fact...so its not really surprising that you don't see it. Um...er...well... I have no choice! [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #4,370 by screamer 8/9/01 11:46:16 AM Reply	You are a victim of your times... for now I saw Arthur M. Schlessinger speak one time at a University and he brought up an interesting point about American politics. The liberal viewpoint and the conservative viewpoint are like a pendulum that swings to the left or the right (liberal to conservative) and over again, about every 10-15 years - never reaching an equillibrium. Popular thought (and dare I say "acceptable" thought) in the mid 80's revolved around the Churchill saying, "anyone with a heart under thiry years old is a liberal, anyone with a brain over thirty years old is a conservative". Notice that popular thinkspeak at that time was tilted to the right extreme... you are smart if you are conservative and "have heart" but aren't smart if you are liberal - this is not so different from modern thinkspeak like you can't be a "compassionate conservative", n'est ce pas? You, being an Economist, tend to look at things from a capitalist Economist's standpoint (I emphasize "capitalist"), that most things the private sector do are goooooood and most things the government does are baaaaad. Which from a strictly free enterprise capitalist's point of view is pretty true. The problem lies in the fact that government IS necessary to curb runaway capitalism (i.e. Go to the Cuyahoga river and eat some fish caught there...) and they can sometimes be good. The heart and the head are both necessary for a person to survive. I've heard Rush Limbaugh say things like "there is no such thing as a moderate Republican", "feminazi's", "tree huggers", etc... This kind of inflammatory crap thinking is quoted often and then is associated with "conservativism" (I think he says his show is the "center for conservative studies"). Perhaps foreign countries hear his program? If that is their definition of what an "American conservative" is, God help conservatives... Rush is no more a conservative than Bill Clinton is a liberal... but if noone challenges fools like Limbaugh and actually pay him hundreds of millions of dollars (yes, that's right, he signed a $125,000,000 20 year deal!!!), then they may deserve to be characterised as fools themselves... I'm all over the map now, but you should take heart... a swing to the right is coming! If only I can endure another one... I'll try to enjoy the moment of equillibrium... Just quite a few political thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #4,232 by addison 8/8/01 1:56:03 PM Reply	DoE(ddication) Here we have a massive federal infrastructure costing MILLIONS to maintain. And don't forget (and I'm sure you haven't) that its self-sustaining now. The counter to getting rid of the DoE, is without some "standard" for all the states to measure themselves, and report to, that it (might) become impossible to figure out who knows what from where. Not insurmountable, and there's certainly a lot of spread now (As well as some ahem fudging of the numbers (Going to school when SC was #50 in SAT scores, they were quick to tell us that part of that problem was that in SC, anybody can take the SAT. In other states (which we won't mention here (even if I did remember them)) that were close to, or at the top, you could only take the SAT (and have it "counted" if you passed some pre-reqs). But the localities are subject to be hijacked (as in one Utah town, where all the kids were pulled out on orders from their Church Leader (splinter Mormon group), leaving something like 50 kids, total, in school. A federal DoE doesn't fix that, but I have to admit, having only localities in any sort of charge (and especially the ones easily hijacked by the vocal Religious Right, and (attempting to) mandating school prayers, 10 commandments, getting rid of various science points that offend the biblical..... That worries me, too. the fact that the fed could convert all of that money into local block grants for schools.. (Or not take it in the first place... but I know, thinking like that comes HARD, even for the Great Refunder. :)) as someone who doesn't care about the future of America's children Well, I've got some stories from my family, the teachers, that would astound most people. I don't know why Anybody bothers with public schools anymore. Wait, sorry. Wrong Rant. :) Ick. Still shuddering over that. :) Addison

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