Re: the common soldiers of the Waffen SS

Post #419,832 by mmoffitt 8/18/17 4:19:13 PM 8/18/17 4:19:13 PM Reply	Re: the common soldiers of the Waffen SS Careful with that. I know you must remember this. I don't disagree with your sentiment on the issue(s) of today. However, I can understand why some would view your latest post, if taken to be the general consensus, as hypocritical given how popular Ronnie Rayguns was and remained even after he shamed (in my view anyway) our nation with his antics on that horrible day in May, 1985. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,833 by rcareaga 8/18/17 6:35:56 PM 8/18/17 6:35:56 PM Reply	Yeah, Bitburg I remember. Although I’ve known people who would disagree to the point, I daresay, of insisting that no German combatant from that conflict deserves a grave marker, there are inevitably military cemeteries full of Wehrmacht dead throughout the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, and I haven’t a problem with this myself. Reagan’s visit was, I think, merely tone-deaf (although profoundly so) rather than indicative of actual Nazi sympathies (I wouldn’t extend Trump the benefit of the doubt on this point any farther than I could spit a rat, as Douglas Adams once put it). Recall that Ross insists that the statues of Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Nathan Bedford Forrest, et cetera are to be understood as—well, I’ll let him speak for himself: “If I have any sympathy it is for the common soldier, who was lucky to own livestock, much less a slave, and who felt himself to be defending his country against invaders. And it is he who is represented by the monuments.” So, see, it only looks like a statue of Bloody Bill Anderson, but it’s really a celebration of the brave irregulars who fought for their country. cordially,
Post #419,875 by mmoffitt 8/21/17 8:30:40 AM 8/21/17 8:30:40 AM Reply	I remember Ross. But you might want to pass along this link to him. A very dear and longtime friend (one of the first members of my college club I mention below) sent that link to me. It's impossible to argue against being a "useful idiot" for the Confederate 1 per cent whilst arguing for the statues to remain. Having an ancestor who was one of the paupers that fought for the Confederacy in the storied NC 26th regiment, survived Pickett's Charge, and surrendered with Lee at Appomattox (I have his POW card to prove it) that Ross apparently thinks so highly of, I can perhaps better understand Ross' position on the statues than many. But if he reads that article, it will be impossible for him to conclude anything other than being a proponent of keeping the statues up is nothing more than continuing to be a useful idiot for the Confederate one per centers; just as was my ancestor. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,834 by drook 8/18/17 8:06:30 PM 8/18/17 8:06:30 PM Reply	How is that hypocritical? Reagan was popular with the right, and the press reported that the visit was a bad idea. Today, Trump is popular with the fringe right, and pretty much everyone else is saying his statements are a bad idea. If there's a difference, it's that even Reagan's opponents didn't suggest that he supported Nazism, while with Trump it's widely suspected. -- Drew
Post #419,841 by Ashton 8/18/17 10:07:59 PM 8/18/17 10:07:59 PM Reply	"widely suspected" Well.. My own ear-pans have heard him use the phrase, "I'd be honored to meet with ____" re. Erdogan, Un and Duterte ... there may be others on video too. I narrowly suspect, accordingly. He Knows who is (a)like. (Maybe though, he wants to meet, sucker-punch and maim each one?) ..and we're all being Mean to the mofo :-/
Post #419,876 by mmoffitt 8/21/17 8:47:32 AM 8/21/17 8:47:32 AM Reply	And yet, he persisted. I remember a tearing Ellie Weisel begging Reagan not go honor dead Nazis. It made me sick. Up until this year, I don't think I've ever been as ashamed of my country as I was that day. Anyone who claims that Reagan was not (at the very least) a Fascist sympathizer didn't pay attention to the 1980's. ALBANY, March 25— Governor Cuomo today accused President Reagan of being ''extraordinarily insensitive'' about the Holocaust and said he had written a letter to the White House to express the view. The Nazis' killing of six million Jews was ''unique in its savagery,'' and the world should never forget it, Mr. Cuomo told reporters. In response to the Governor's comments to the reporters, a White House spokesman, Marlin Fitzwater, tonight issued this statement: ''The President is very sensitive to the colossal tragedy of the Jewish population during World War II. He has often said that the Holocaust should never be forgotten. But we also have to look to the future of peace and sharing with the German people.'' The White House press office said there would be no immediate reply to the Governor's letter. The President's comments at his news conference Thursday about his decision not to visit a concentration camp site in Germany, Mr. Cuomo said, could be seen as ''the same as saying, 'Let's forget about the Holocaust.' '' Mr. Cuomo brought up the matter in an impromptu conversation with reporters. What Mr. Reagan said specifically, in response to a question about his decision not to visit Dachau when he goes to West Germany in May, around the time of the 40th anniversary of V-E Day, was this: ''Instead of reawakening the memories and so forth, and the passions of the time, that maybe we should observe this day as the day when, 40 years ago, peace began and friendship.'' ''And I felt that, since the German people have very few alive that remember even the war, and certainly none of them who were adults and participating in any way,'' the President went on, ''they have a feeling and a guilt feeling that's been imposed upon them.'' http://www.nytimes.com/1985/03/26/nyregion/cuomo-attacks-reagan-on-holocaust-comment.html Riiight. No equivocating there. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,881 by Ashton 8/21/17 5:27:33 PM 8/21/17 5:27:33 PM Reply	(I bloody-well visited THAT pernicious Place/also described an odd event--in these parts.) It seems that ~~America~~Murica's daily-fantasies about-Itself are so glass-fragile that, most of Its Myths just won't bear inspection by a bright-light (like say, a near burned-down candle?) Rationalization + all those fucking-Euphemisms appears to be a big part of the incessant internal-Lying but it also needs that common-thread of immanent Iggerance, on local/National and/World-Scale to end up: Blaming! some sky-apparition for {{ugh}} ... "makin U.S. so S p e c i a l". ..Talk aboucher 'Incestuous Religio-inventions' from the Puritans --> On.
Post #419,873 by CRConrad 8/21/17 4:56:43 AM 8/21/17 4:56:43 AM Reply	Huge diff. Says so right in the first sentence of the NYT article: "...the graves of nearly 2,000 German soldiers, including 49 SS troops." There's no mention that those 49 would all be SS generals, like the statues Ross claims "commemorate the common soldier". You'd have a point if there'd been a movement in Germany to preserve lots of monuments to SS generals and Reagan had shown support for that movement -- but since there was none such, he didn't, so you don't. -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #419,874 by mmoffitt 8/21/17 8:19:08 AM 8/22/17 8:36:37 AM Reply	Ellie Wiesel thought I did. WASHINGTON, April 19— President Reagan listened intently today as Elie Wiesel, chairman of the United States Holocaust Memorial Council, implored him to cancel a visit to a German cemetery where Nazi war dead are buried. ''That place, Mr. President, is not your place,'' Mr. Wiesel told Mr. Reagan at White House ceremonies honoring the 56-year-old writer. ''Your place is with the victims of the SS.'' http://www.nytimes.com/1985/04/20/us/wiesel-confronts-reagan-trip-president-visit-bergen-belsen-survivor-holocaust.html I remember this very vividly. I had just established a new club at my college named "Students for the American Way" and our first campus display was a poster showing Holocaust victims along side a Christmas celebration for Nazis. The title of the poster said, "President Reagan says these are victims (above Holocaust victims) and these are victims, too (above the Nazis)". We had a bucket of gray armbands and asked that students wear one that day to "Honor the victims of the people our President goes to honor today." It was sad to see only a few armbands on students, but nearly the entire faculty wore them that day. Edit: My horrid misspelling of Wiesel. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again. Edited by mmoffitt Aug. 22, 2017, 08:36:37 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #419,880 by Ashton 8/21/17 5:13:19 PM 8/21/17 5:13:19 PM Reply	Well-done, young Nazi-Stalker! (one of the few [+] connotations of that word? :-)
Post #419,943 by CRConrad 8/24/17 9:38:59 AM 8/24/17 9:38:59 AM Reply	They were a) actual corpses, not statues; b) 2.5 % Waffen-SS, 97.5 % Wehrmacht. Not to say Elie Wiesel was more fallible than anyone else, but even he wasn't infallible either. He could be wrong, and there he was; just as wrong as you. -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #419,945 by mmoffitt 8/24/17 11:49:18 AM 8/24/17 11:49:18 AM Reply	Re: He could be wrong, and there he was; YMMV, but I'd a whole hell of a lot rather be just "as wrong as Ellie Wiesel" on a moral issue than stand with people advocating honoring Nazis - live or dead. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,947 by drook 8/24/17 12:29:29 PM 8/24/17 12:29:29 PM Reply	Intent matters Reagan acknowledged the evils of the past, and was making a point to show that despite that past we could now work together. Those who erected the Confederate statues in the 20s - and more in the 60s - were saying that despite the official surrender of the South, whites are still in charge. Jews and skinheads alike go to Auschwitz. One group to remember, the other to reminisce. Intent matters. -- Drew
Post #419,948 by mmoffitt 8/24/17 1:06:29 PM 8/24/17 1:06:29 PM Reply	Yes, it does. Knowingly laying a wreath at the graves of dead SS is equivalent to saying, "All is forgiven." Which sounds awfully like the argument you're making. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,949 by drook 8/24/17 2:23:36 PM 8/24/17 2:23:36 PM Reply	Do you know the difference between "action" and "intent"? -- Drew
Post #419,954 by mmoffitt 8/24/17 3:40:40 PM 8/24/17 3:40:40 PM Reply	One more time, slowly. "Reagan acknowledged the evils of the past, and was making a point to show that despite that past we could now work together." That's what YOU said, right? So, the intent of the wreath laying was to say, "We forgive you the atrocities, now let's move forward". It was fucking clear to even the most blind that we were capable of "working together" with West Germany (FFS!!!ONE1) without have to lay a wreath on the graves of dead SS. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,964 by CRConrad 8/25/17 2:17:36 AM 8/25/17 2:17:36 AM Reply	You're still just as wrong. Da Moff confidently proclaims: "Knowingly laying a wreath at the graves of dead SS is equivalent to saying, "All is forgiven." A) No it isn't. That's your interpretation, and as so often from you, it's wrong again. It could just as well be equivalent to saying "we grieve for the deaths of these ordinary soldiers" -- and I'm pretty sure that was what Reagan meant. For one thing, that goes for the Waffen-SS too; for another, you seem to very quickly have got into this silly habit of pretending those other 1,950 guys weren't there. B) Even if it were: So what? Are the Germans, as a people, never going to be forgiven; pariahs for ever and ever? (Dunno if you've noticed already, but pretty much all of them that were around then are long dead.) How is that attitude different from "Never forgive the Jesus-killers!" anti-semitism? -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #419,966 by mmoffitt 8/25/17 8:30:12 AM 8/25/17 8:30:12 AM Reply	Re: You're still just as wrong. A) Merely stating as a fact YOUR opinion does not define a fact. Nor does it even offer the weakest of arguments as to the superiority of your opinion to that of Ellie Wiesel, me and the overwhelming majority of sentient beings who do not give a rat fuck that those "brave boys in brown" who were not SS, technically, and were, I suppose you'd argue, not really Nazis in that grave yard helped keep the trains running on time or maybe just killed or helped others to kill Allied Forces who where trying to overthrow Hitler. Fuck them, the memory of them and their contributions to the Reich. B) WTF? Who is advocating never forgiving the German people? We're talking about not honoring the corpses of the people who aided Hitler in his atrocities FFS. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,968 by drook 8/25/17 9:49:55 AM 8/25/17 9:49:55 AM Reply	Heh Merely stating as a fact YOUR opinion does not define a fact. Physician, heal thyself. -- Drew
Post #419,972 by mmoffitt 8/25/17 10:01:57 AM 8/25/17 10:01:57 AM Reply	I'm sorry. I didn't know you were so unfamiliar with English. How'd this sub-thread start? Oh yeah, I posted this: I don't disagree with your sentiment on the issue(s) of today. However, I can understand why some would view your latest post, if taken to be the general consensus, as hypocritical given how popular Ronnie Rayguns was and remained even after he shamed (in my view anyway) our nation with his antics on that horrible day in May, 1985. "In my view anyway" is not a phrase used in English to express statements of fact. HTH. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,973 by drook 8/25/17 10:13:21 AM 8/25/17 10:13:21 AM Reply	More Anyone who claims that Reagan was not (at the very least) a Fascist sympathizer didn't pay attention to the 1980's. Knowingly laying a wreath at the graves of dead SS is equivalent to saying, "All is forgiven." So, the intent of the wreath laying was to say, "We forgive you the atrocities, now let's move forward". -- Drew
Post #419,974 by mmoffitt 8/25/17 10:44:58 AM 8/25/17 10:44:58 AM Reply	Preamble qualified all of that as "In my view." HTH. Again. Context is everything. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,950 by Ashton 8/24/17 2:47:35 PM 8/24/17 2:47:35 PM Reply	There can be 'intent' ... clouded with umm.. ... insouciance? As when {same guy..} LET FAIL that Genuine, genuinely-Possible real Joint-Action to begin eliminating All Nukes. Period. Ronnie had this little-dream-inside; "Star Warz" == close-enough - and By-golly (plus a jar of Jelly Beans) He Waren't gonna let that little (er WEAPON-dream) be upstaged by [see ^above^] So, sorry then: pure-intent don't mean a whole lot, where the Reasoning is defective / emulates what was LOST at Reykjavik :-/ There is no algorithm extant, far as I've heard, as bestows Instant Wisdom on ..a flake. Now let's define flake, Wash/rinse.. (Let's not even Try 'Reasoning', 'K?) [Referents] Don't Leave Home without a correct one, sez Chase (et al)
Post #419,969 by drook 8/25/17 9:56:56 AM 8/25/17 9:56:56 AM Reply	You sure you want to go there? If his reasoning is so faulty you won't give him credit for a positive concept, then you can't give him fault for the negative ones. -- Drew
Post #419,982 by Ashton 8/25/17 4:14:48 PM 8/25/17 4:14:48 PM Reply	Umm, where is that 'Writ-for-textbook-adornment' ? IIR~C the overall-mood there was about Hopes in that --> Direction, so any credit is Shared-already. Boolean has its limits, (I have wotted.) ;^>
Post #419,952 by Andrew Grygus 8/24/17 2:59:27 PM 8/24/17 2:59:27 PM Reply	There is also significant difference among . . . Waffen SS (regular soldiers in the field), Allgemeine SS (General SS, political and administrative) SS-Totenkopfverbände (ran the death camps). In Germany Waffen SS veterans have long campaigned for veteran's benefits, as they considered themselves soldiers like other soldiers, not involved with the nasty stuff.
Post #419,955 by mmoffitt 8/24/17 3:43:17 PM 8/24/17 3:43:17 PM Reply	Heh. "Administrative". You mean like scheduling trains? bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,956 by Andrew Grygus 8/24/17 4:29:23 PM 8/24/17 4:29:23 PM Reply	Yup, and placing orders for more ovens. The Waffen SS was not entirely innocent either, having participated in several massacres, but blame can be more specifically placed there. A major weakness of the "I was just following orders" defense is that many German soldiers did refuse to participate in executions, and were not punished for that.
Post #419,979 by scoenye 8/25/17 3:54:24 PM 8/25/17 3:54:24 PM Reply	Disctinctions are of scale only The Waffen SS participated in the Einszatsgruppe and its vagaries towards the occupied populations and opposing forces are notorious.

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