Post #419,831
8/18/17 3:57:08 PM
8/18/17 3:57:08 PM
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of cornerstones and plinths
Some of the Usual Suspects, though fewer of them than I might have expected, are down with the short-fingered vulgarian’s both-siderism. Still, even the loathsome Franklin Graham, a vicious character who in points of Christian compassion and intellectual rigor makes his old man look like Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, has apparently backed away from his initial endorsement of DJT’s meltdown earlier in the week. Mitt Romney, of all people, has been more forthright in his censure than any prominent Republican officeholder that I’m aware of. Over on social media, Ross Lunsford takes considerable exception to any mention of the Confederacy and the Third Reich in the same breath, apparently conflating comparison and equivalence (I had made the point, as I have in these fora, that monuments to the prominent figures of the latter government are not thick on the ground in the Federal Republic of Germany). It has occurred to me that his case might be marginally stronger were it not for the fact that so many of these defenders of Confederate heritage arrive at the party arrayed in, well, swastikas. Anyway, when Boss Tweet lost his shit a few days ago, he had recourse to his favorite medium, and began suggesting that the removal of these beautiful civic adornment must inevitably lead to the effigies of Washington and Jefferson being pulled down, since these were also slaveowners, and so there‘s absolutely no difference between Thomas Jefferson and Jefferson Davis, amirite? Well actually no, you garish blot on the polity, you are not. Let’s ask someone who was a lot closer to both the Confederates’ and the Founders’ generations. I yield the floor to Alexander H. Stephens, Vice President of the CSA, who advanced the notion that the two groups held views philosophical views very much at odds with one another when it came to chattel slavery. Here is Stephens addressing a gathering in Savannah in March 1861, in an oration today known as the “Cornerstone Speech”: The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the ‘rock upon which the old Union would split.’ He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. He goes on to draw a distinction between that woolly-minded generation and his own: Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. As I mentioned earlier, I would rather that the objectionable monuments be removed, so to say, by due process rather than pulled own by excited crowds. While the CSA and the Third Reich were not equivalent—they merely each embodied (the latter, obviously, on the scale of modern mass industrial production) a profound human evil—the historical memory of each should properly be despised rather than celebrated. The “heritage” these statues glorify is an odious one, and its message is well understood today by the descendants of both the slaveholders and their slaves. Lunsford maintains that they honor the common soldier who fought to defend his country; I responded that the common soldiers of the Waffen SS should in that case also be abundantly memorialized, since they took the field, once the fortunes of war were running the other way, in defense of the Vaterland against the onslaught of the invading Red Army. “That’s different,” he huffed. I’d as soon this chronic moral infection of the Republic’s hadn’t broken out yet again on my watch, and regard with some foreboding the damage the present episode might do before the fever abates, but perhaps we will rid ourselves of some of the pus as the sickness rages. cordially,
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Post #419,832
8/18/17 4:19:13 PM
8/18/17 4:19:13 PM
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Re: the common soldiers of the Waffen SS
Careful with that. I know you must remember this. I don't disagree with your sentiment on the issue(s) of today. However, I can understand why some would view your latest post, if taken to be the general consensus, as hypocritical given how popular Ronnie Rayguns was and remained even after he shamed (in my view anyway) our nation with his antics on that horrible day in May, 1985.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #419,833
8/18/17 6:35:56 PM
8/18/17 6:35:56 PM
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Yeah, Bitburg
I remember. Although I’ve known people who would disagree to the point, I daresay, of insisting that no German combatant from that conflict deserves a grave marker, there are inevitably military cemeteries full of Wehrmacht dead throughout the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, and I haven’t a problem with this myself. Reagan’s visit was, I think, merely tone-deaf (although profoundly so) rather than indicative of actual Nazi sympathies (I wouldn’t extend Trump the benefit of the doubt on this point any farther than I could spit a rat, as Douglas Adams once put it). Recall that Ross insists that the statues of Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Nathan Bedford Forrest, et cetera are to be understood as—well, I’ll let him speak for himself: “If I have any sympathy it is for the common soldier, who was lucky to own livestock, much less a slave, and who felt himself to be defending his country against invaders. And it is he who is represented by the monuments.” So, see, it only looks like a statue of Bloody Bill Anderson, but it’s really a celebration of the brave irregulars who fought for their country.
cordially,
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Post #419,875
8/21/17 8:30:40 AM
8/21/17 8:30:40 AM
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I remember Ross.
But you might want to pass along this link to him.A very dear and longtime friend (one of the first members of my college club I mention below) sent that link to me. It's impossible to argue against being a "useful idiot" for the Confederate 1 per cent whilst arguing for the statues to remain. Having an ancestor who was one of the paupers that fought for the Confederacy in the storied NC 26th regiment, survived Pickett's Charge, and surrendered with Lee at Appomattox (I have his POW card to prove it) that Ross apparently thinks so highly of, I can perhaps better understand Ross' position on the statues than many. But if he reads that article, it will be impossible for him to conclude anything other than being a proponent of keeping the statues up is nothing more than continuing to be a useful idiot for the Confederate one per centers; just as was my ancestor.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #419,834
8/18/17 8:06:30 PM
8/18/17 8:06:30 PM
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How is that hypocritical?
Reagan was popular with the right, and the press reported that the visit was a bad idea.
Today, Trump is popular with the fringe right, and pretty much everyone else is saying his statements are a bad idea.
If there's a difference, it's that even Reagan's opponents didn't suggest that he supported Nazism, while with Trump it's widely suspected.
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Post #419,841
8/18/17 10:07:59 PM
8/18/17 10:07:59 PM
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"widely suspected"
Well.. My own ear-pans have heard him use the phrase, "I'd be honored to meet with ____" re. Erdogan, Un and Duterte ... there may be others on video too.
I narrowly suspect, accordingly. He Knows who is (a)like. (Maybe though, he wants to meet, sucker-punch and maim each one?) ..and we're all being Mean to the mofo :-/
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Post #419,876
8/21/17 8:47:32 AM
8/21/17 8:47:32 AM
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And yet, he persisted.
I remember a tearing Ellie Weisel begging Reagan not go honor dead Nazis. It made me sick. Up until this year, I don't think I've ever been as ashamed of my country as I was that day. Anyone who claims that Reagan was not (at the very least) a Fascist sympathizer didn't pay attention to the 1980's. ALBANY, March 25— Governor Cuomo today accused President Reagan of being ''extraordinarily insensitive'' about the Holocaust and said he had written a letter to the White House to express the view.
The Nazis' killing of six million Jews was ''unique in its savagery,'' and the world should never forget it, Mr. Cuomo told reporters.
In response to the Governor's comments to the reporters, a White House spokesman, Marlin Fitzwater, tonight issued this statement: ''The President is very sensitive to the colossal tragedy of the Jewish population during World War II. He has often said that the Holocaust should never be forgotten. But we also have to look to the future of peace and sharing with the German people.''
The White House press office said there would be no immediate reply to the Governor's letter.
The President's comments at his news conference Thursday about his decision not to visit a concentration camp site in Germany, Mr. Cuomo said, could be seen as ''the same as saying, 'Let's forget about the Holocaust.' '' Mr. Cuomo brought up the matter in an impromptu conversation with reporters.
What Mr. Reagan said specifically, in response to a question about his decision not to visit Dachau when he goes to West Germany in May, around the time of the 40th anniversary of V-E Day, was this: ''Instead of reawakening the memories and so forth, and the passions of the time, that maybe we should observe this day as the day when, 40 years ago, peace began and friendship.''
''And I felt that, since the German people have very few alive that remember even the war, and certainly none of them who were adults and participating in any way,'' the President went on, ''they have a feeling and a guilt feeling that's been imposed upon them.'' http://www.nytimes.com/1985/03/26/nyregion/cuomo-attacks-reagan-on-holocaust-comment.htmlRiiight. No equivocating there.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #419,881
8/21/17 5:27:33 PM
8/21/17 5:27:33 PM
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(I bloody-well visited THAT pernicious Place/also described an odd event--in these parts.)
It seems that AmericaMurica's daily-fantasies about-Itself are so glass-fragile that, most of Its Myths just won't bear inspection by a bright-light (like say, a near burned-down candle?)
Rationalization + all those fucking-Euphemisms appears to be a big part of the incessant internal-Lying but it also needs that common-thread of immanent Iggerance, on local/National and/World-Scale to end up: Blaming! some sky-apparition for {{ugh}} ... "makin U.S. so S p e c i a l".
..Talk aboucher 'Incestuous Religio-inventions' from the Puritans --> On.
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Post #419,873
8/21/17 4:56:43 AM
8/21/17 4:56:43 AM
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Huge diff. Says so right in the first sentence of the NYT article:
"...the graves of nearly 2,000 German soldiers, including 49 SS troops."
There's no mention that those 49 would all be SS generals, like the statues Ross claims "commemorate the common soldier".
You'd have a point if there'd been a movement in Germany to preserve lots of monuments to SS generals and Reagan had shown support for that movement -- but since there was none such, he didn't, so you don't.
-- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
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Post #419,874
8/21/17 8:19:08 AM
8/22/17 8:36:37 AM
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Ellie Wiesel thought I did.
WASHINGTON, April 19— President Reagan listened intently today as Elie Wiesel, chairman of the United States Holocaust Memorial Council, implored him to cancel a visit to a German cemetery where Nazi war dead are buried.
''That place, Mr. President, is not your place,'' Mr. Wiesel told Mr. Reagan at White House ceremonies honoring the 56-year-old writer. ''Your place is with the victims of the SS.'' http://www.nytimes.com/1985/04/20/us/wiesel-confronts-reagan-trip-president-visit-bergen-belsen-survivor-holocaust.htmlI remember this very vividly. I had just established a new club at my college named "Students for the American Way" and our first campus display was a poster showing Holocaust victims along side a Christmas celebration for Nazis. The title of the poster said, "President Reagan says these are victims (above Holocaust victims) and these are victims, too (above the Nazis)". We had a bucket of gray armbands and asked that students wear one that day to "Honor the victims of the people our President goes to honor today." It was sad to see only a few armbands on students, but nearly the entire faculty wore them that day. Edit: My horrid misspelling of Wiesel.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
Edited by mmoffitt
Aug. 22, 2017, 08:36:37 AM EDT
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Post #419,880
8/21/17 5:13:19 PM
8/21/17 5:13:19 PM
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Well-done, young Nazi-Stalker! (one of the few [+] connotations of that word? :-)
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Post #419,943
8/24/17 9:38:59 AM
8/24/17 9:38:59 AM
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They were a) actual corpses, not statues; b) 2.5 % Waffen-SS, 97.5 % Wehrmacht.
Not to say Elie Wiesel was more fallible than anyone else, but even he wasn't infallible either. He could be wrong, and there he was; just as wrong as you.
-- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
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Post #419,945
8/24/17 11:49:18 AM
8/24/17 11:49:18 AM
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Re: He could be wrong, and there he was;
YMMV, but I'd a whole hell of a lot rather be just "as wrong as Ellie Wiesel" on a moral issue than stand with people advocating honoring Nazis - live or dead.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #419,947
8/24/17 12:29:29 PM
8/24/17 12:29:29 PM
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Intent matters
Reagan acknowledged the evils of the past, and was making a point to show that despite that past we could now work together. Those who erected the Confederate statues in the 20s - and more in the 60s - were saying that despite the official surrender of the South, whites are still in charge. Jews and skinheads alike go to Auschwitz. One group to remember, the other to reminisce. Intent matters.
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Post #419,948
8/24/17 1:06:29 PM
8/24/17 1:06:29 PM
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Yes, it does.
Knowingly laying a wreath at the graves of dead SS is equivalent to saying, "All is forgiven." Which sounds awfully like the argument you're making.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #419,949
8/24/17 2:23:36 PM
8/24/17 2:23:36 PM
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Do you know the difference between "action" and "intent"?
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Post #419,954
8/24/17 3:40:40 PM
8/24/17 3:40:40 PM
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One more time, slowly.
"Reagan acknowledged the evils of the past, and was making a point to show that despite that past we could now work together." That's what YOU said, right? So, the intent of the wreath laying was to say, "We forgive you the atrocities, now let's move forward". It was fucking clear to even the most blind that we were capable of "working together" with West Germany (FFS!!!ONE1) without have to lay a wreath on the graves of dead SS.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #419,964
8/25/17 2:17:36 AM
8/25/17 2:17:36 AM
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You're still just as wrong.
Da Moff confidently proclaims: "Knowingly laying a wreath at the graves of dead SS is equivalent to saying, "All is forgiven." A) No it isn't. That's your interpretation, and as so often from you, it's wrong again. It could just as well be equivalent to saying "we grieve for the deaths of these ordinary soldiers" -- and I'm pretty sure that was what Reagan meant. For one thing, that goes for the Waffen-SS too; for another, you seem to very quickly have got into this silly habit of pretending those other 1,950 guys weren't there. B) Even if it were: So what? Are the Germans, as a people, never going to be forgiven; pariahs for ever and ever? (Dunno if you've noticed already, but pretty much all of them that were around then are long dead.) How is that attitude different from "Never forgive the Jesus-killers!" anti-semitism?
-- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
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Post #419,966
8/25/17 8:30:12 AM
8/25/17 8:30:12 AM
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Re: You're still just as wrong.
A) Merely stating as a fact YOUR opinion does not define a fact. Nor does it even offer the weakest of arguments as to the superiority of your opinion to that of Ellie Wiesel, me and the overwhelming majority of sentient beings who do not give a rat fuck that those "brave boys in brown" who were not SS, technically, and were, I suppose you'd argue, not really Nazis in that grave yard helped keep the trains running on time or maybe just killed or helped others to kill Allied Forces who where trying to overthrow Hitler. Fuck them, the memory of them and their contributions to the Reich.
B) WTF? Who is advocating never forgiving the German people? We're talking about not honoring the corpses of the people who aided Hitler in his atrocities FFS.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #419,968
8/25/17 9:49:55 AM
8/25/17 9:49:55 AM
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Heh
Merely stating as a fact YOUR opinion does not define a fact. Physician, heal thyself.
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Post #419,972
8/25/17 10:01:57 AM
8/25/17 10:01:57 AM
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I'm sorry. I didn't know you were so unfamiliar with English.
How'd this sub-thread start? Oh yeah, I posted this: I don't disagree with your sentiment on the issue(s) of today. However, I can understand why some would view your latest post, if taken to be the general consensus, as hypocritical given how popular Ronnie Rayguns was and remained even after he shamed (in my view anyway) our nation with his antics on that horrible day in May, 1985. "In my view anyway" is not a phrase used in English to express statements of fact. HTH.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #419,973
8/25/17 10:13:21 AM
8/25/17 10:13:21 AM
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More
Anyone who claims that Reagan was not (at the very least) a Fascist sympathizer didn't pay attention to the 1980's. Knowingly laying a wreath at the graves of dead SS is equivalent to saying, "All is forgiven." So, the intent of the wreath laying was to say, "We forgive you the atrocities, now let's move forward".
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Post #419,974
8/25/17 10:44:58 AM
8/25/17 10:44:58 AM
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Preamble qualified all of that as "In my view." HTH. Again. Context is everything.
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #419,950
8/24/17 2:47:35 PM
8/24/17 2:47:35 PM
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There can be 'intent' ... clouded with umm.. ... insouciance?
As when {same guy..} LET FAIL that Genuine, genuinely-Possible *real* Joint-Action to begin eliminating All Nukes. Period.
Ronnie had this little-dream-inside; "Star Warz" == close-enough - and By-golly (plus a jar of Jelly Beans) He Waren't gonna let that little (er WEAPON-dream) be upstaged by [see ^above^]
So, sorry then: pure-intent don't mean a whole lot, where the Reasoning is defective / emulates what was LOST at Reykjavik :-/
There is no algorithm extant, far as I've heard, as bestows Instant Wisdom on ..a flake. Now let's define flake, Wash/rinse.. (Let's not even Try 'Reasoning', 'K?)
[Referents] Don't Leave Home without a correct one, sez Chase (et al)
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Post #419,969
8/25/17 9:56:56 AM
8/25/17 9:56:56 AM
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You sure you want to go there?
If his reasoning is so faulty you won't give him credit for a positive concept, then you can't give him fault for the negative ones.
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Post #419,982
8/25/17 4:14:48 PM
8/25/17 4:14:48 PM
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Umm, where is that 'Writ-for-textbook-adornment' ?
IIR~C the overall-mood there was about Hopes in that --> Direction, so any credit is Shared-already. Boolean has its limits, (I have wotted.) ;^>
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Post #419,952
8/24/17 2:59:27 PM
8/24/17 2:59:27 PM
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There is also significant difference among . . .
Waffen SS (regular soldiers in the field), Allgemeine SS (General SS, political and administrative) SS-Totenkopfverbände (ran the death camps).
In Germany Waffen SS veterans have long campaigned for veteran's benefits, as they considered themselves soldiers like other soldiers, not involved with the nasty stuff.
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Post #419,955
8/24/17 3:43:17 PM
8/24/17 3:43:17 PM
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Heh. "Administrative". You mean like scheduling trains?
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #419,956
8/24/17 4:29:23 PM
8/24/17 4:29:23 PM
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Yup, and placing orders for more ovens.
The Waffen SS was not entirely innocent either, having participated in several massacres, but blame can be more specifically placed there.
A major weakness of the "I was just following orders" defense is that many German soldiers did refuse to participate in executions, and were not punished for that.
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Post #419,979
8/25/17 3:54:24 PM
8/25/17 3:54:24 PM
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Disctinctions are of scale only
The Waffen SS participated in the Einszatsgruppe and its vagaries towards the occupied populations and opposing forces are notorious.
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