You are of course correct about Mormonism and Scientology, but your incredulity...

...at the Hammer of Thor feels weird, even slightly annoying. Asatro is a prefectly normal religion; everybody in the North used to believe it until those evil Jihadists from the South spread their perfidious lies here. (And in my name, to boot!)

Also, while you may know more than I about the exact composition of modern-day Wicca, I was under the impression that on the whole, it is pretty much like Asatro, an attempted revival of pre-Me religions, only more Celtic than North-Germanic. OK, perhaps with a little more general-pantheistic Nature worship and "New Age" mumbo-jumbo thrown in (though I think many current Asa worshippers also lean in those directions?), but on the whole for most practitioners a more-or-less sincere belief system -- as opposed to Pastafarianism and that Jedi "religion", which also feels more "for fun" to me (although I think I saw an article on it being in some sense "officially recognised" [perhaps in Oz?] even before the CFSM NZ wedding article linked here).

And I certainly don't get the same vibe of "organised scam from the start and from the top down" as Scientology, either from Asatro or Wicca; does anyone here?

Wicca and Druidism had to be made up from scratch, as there was just about zero reliable historical anything.

With Wicca, Gardner's claim to have been initiated by a secret coven of Celtic witches, is, of course, like all such claims (golden tablets, etc), pure bullshit. That it is all made from whole cloth doesn't bother me, it serves the people practicing it, and it's pretty much harmless. Wicca has split into "British Traditional" (Gardnarian) and sects that were not trained in the Gardnarian tradition, primarily in North America and Continental Europe. This is fine - it's a developing philosophy and some of the bullshit is being thrown away. Of course, there's Dianic Wicca, which accepts only naturally born lesbians and recognizes only a goddesses, and other splinter groups - pretty much harmless because of very limited membership. There are plenty of other covens for the rejected.

Contemporary Druidism started out with just about no reliable information except that the Druids believed in reincarnation and had some to do with mistletoe. Everything else is questionable due to having been written by their enemies, and some just by hearsay. It started out monotheistic, based of Freemasonry, but evolved rapidly in the 20th century as archaeologists found more information on Celtic culture. It is now polytheistic and nature based with a strong environmental bent. Again, I don't see a problem - it serves its practitioners and is harmless. Like Wicca, it's highly decentralized. Of course, they like to have events at Stonehenge, which was built 2000 years before the first Druid by a people we know nothing about except they were very good at astronomical mathematics and at moving rocks.

Reconstruction is much easier in places like Lithuania and Abkhazia where much was preserved, and even Russia and Ukraine. The largest Pagan temple in the US is Russian. Ossetia is a good reference for reconstructing Pagan traditions, because 30% of its people still hold to an unbroken tradition, having rejected both Christianity and Islam.

The main problem is in Germany, where violent neo-Nazi groups are disguising themselves as Heathen churches.

Post #418,022 by CRConrad 5/5/17 9:29:54 AM 5/5/17 9:29:54 AM Reply	You are of course correct about Mormonism and Scientology, but your incredulity... ...at the Hammer of Thor feels weird, even slightly annoying. Asatro is a prefectly normal religion; everybody in the North used to believe it until those evil Jihadists from the South spread their perfidious lies here. (And in my name, to boot!) Also, while you may know more than I about the exact composition of modern-day Wicca, I was under the impression that on the whole, it is pretty much like Asatro, an attempted revival of pre-Me religions, only more Celtic than North-Germanic. OK, perhaps with a little more general-pantheistic Nature worship and "New Age" mumbo-jumbo thrown in (though I think many current Asa worshippers also lean in those directions?), but on the whole for most practitioners a more-or-less sincere belief system -- as opposed to Pastafarianism and that Jedi "religion", which also feels more "for fun" to me (although I think I saw an article on it being in some sense "officially recognised" [perhaps in Oz?] even before the CFSM NZ wedding article linked here). And I certainly don't get the same vibe of "organised scam from the start and from the top down" as Scientology, either from Asatro or Wicca; does anyone here? -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #418,027 by Andrew Grygus 5/5/17 11:33:14 AM 5/5/17 11:33:14 AM Reply	Wicca, Druidism etc. Wicca and Druidism had to be made up from scratch, as there was just about zero reliable historical anything. With Wicca, Gardner's claim to have been initiated by a secret coven of Celtic witches, is, of course, like all such claims (golden tablets, etc), pure bullshit. That it is all made from whole cloth doesn't bother me, it serves the people practicing it, and it's pretty much harmless. Wicca has split into "British Traditional" (Gardnarian) and sects that were not trained in the Gardnarian tradition, primarily in North America and Continental Europe. This is fine - it's a developing philosophy and some of the bullshit is being thrown away. Of course, there's Dianic Wicca, which accepts only naturally born lesbians and recognizes only a goddesses, and other splinter groups - pretty much harmless because of very limited membership. There are plenty of other covens for the rejected. Contemporary Druidism started out with just about no reliable information except that the Druids believed in reincarnation and had some to do with mistletoe. Everything else is questionable due to having been written by their enemies, and some just by hearsay. It started out monotheistic, based of Freemasonry, but evolved rapidly in the 20th century as archaeologists found more information on Celtic culture. It is now polytheistic and nature based with a strong environmental bent. Again, I don't see a problem - it serves its practitioners and is harmless. Like Wicca, it's highly decentralized. Of course, they like to have events at Stonehenge, which was built 2000 years before the first Druid by a people we know nothing about except they were very good at astronomical mathematics and at moving rocks. Reconstruction is much easier in places like Lithuania and Abkhazia where much was preserved, and even Russia and Ukraine. The largest Pagan temple in the US is Russian. Ossetia is a good reference for reconstructing Pagan traditions, because 30% of its people still hold to an unbroken tradition, having rejected both Christianity and Islam. The main problem is in Germany, where violent neo-Nazi groups are disguising themselves as Heathen churches.
Post #418,029 by CRConrad 5/5/17 12:19:40 PM 5/5/17 12:19:41 PM Reply	Yeah, IIUC Nordic Neo-Nazis are also big on the Asatro. Sigh...
Post #418,030 by malraux 5/5/17 3:39:47 PM 5/5/17 3:39:47 PM Reply	LRPD: "Why, that looks so dangerous - I'm sure I'll learn something wonderful!" Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

Welcome to IWETHEY!