I agree with you - when . .

Post #41,423 by Andrew Grygus 6/6/02 1:06:19 PM Reply	I agree with you - when . . . . an organized government truly is the head of the organism. Today, this is less and less the case. As to the criminals being better armed and more vicious than the rest of the community, then it is the responsibility of the community to counter it by building a government that can counter the criminals, support that government and provide it cooperation and information needed to be effective. If even that can't be done, then perhaps it is time to call in an outside government to put things right until the situation is under control, and cooperate with that government. The bitter truth is, the community should never have let that situation develop in the first place. It is also necessary to appropriately define the "community". In the case of Los Angeles gangs, it might do to simply define "members" as the community, since there actually are powerful government entities to counter them. The guilt of the whole must be applied to each and every member just as the guilt of a government is applied to each and every soldier in it's armed forces - if they're shooting at you, you shoot at all of 'em. Some didn't shoot at you, but you apply the guilt of the highest level that has control. You either do that or accept death for yourself. Unfortunately, in the case of gangs, the community label will probably have to be extended to those who hide and aid members, making it more likely "innocents" will be harmed. Sometimes it's difficult to separate the real innocents from the pretend innocents and accidents will happen. You try to minimize accidents, but accept that they will happen, or accept death for yourself and your loved ones. There are a zillion rationalizations and copouts to justify that the broader community is "innocent" and has no control. Unfortunately, there's no one else to assign that responsibility too. Take the responsibility or suffer the consequences. Life is not easy. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #41,430 by Simon_Jester 6/6/02 1:35:18 PM Reply	chuckle...if we logically extend that out... people get the government they deserve? (Just curious...but I do agree.)
Post #41,433 by Andrew Grygus 6/6/02 2:00:26 PM Reply	You can extend that as far as you want. Populations with highly corrupt governements can be observed to rather admire corruption and power brokering all the way down to the core level. There's a lot too much of that in the U.S. right now, if you ask me. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #41,437 by Ashton 6/6/02 2:44:22 PM Reply	A most embarrassing equivalence there Noting, that is - that ~ half of our One Political Party with Two Right Wings: spends a significant % of its slogans: decrying 'The Govmint' as if it were a foreign occupying power. For decades this mantra has been featured prominently (I recall gramma ... ...) Similarly: Donald Trump, Billy n'Bally, briefly: Any robber baron du jour - continues to be lionized, even by the victims of his (mostly it IS 'his') rapacity. Clearly ours is a culture which admires Winning via any means possible and especially do we admire, Winning It All.. a var. of, ALL or: nothing much except, a commute to daily-hell.. forever. No matter the pious periodic intoning of "how Fair is our Free Market", the clear message of this respect for the alpha-Raptors is: the vast majority of fellow citizens are simply fools, too 'incompetent' to emulate the raptors and Get Their's the Same Way! So I guess that 'we' indeed get the government (and the inevitable local insurrections as follow) which we deserve - Ashton "Show me what you Worship, and I'll explain the ummm 'side effects'".
Post #41,450 by marlowe 6/6/02 4:05:45 PM Reply	People get the government that the majority of them deserve. Especially, but not exclusively, in a democracy. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes. If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
Post #41,440 by Brandioch 6/6/02 2:55:20 PM Reply	"should". The bitter truth is, the community should never have let that situation develop in the first place. And what gave the mob the grip it has on the US is our little governmental experiment with outlawing alcohol. It's easy to ask that others sacrifice themselves. It's easy to decide to kill people who aren't living up to your standards. Yet there aren't ever many people willing to sacrifice themselves for their standards. (Strangely enough, this group includes the suicide bombers and cops and people like Ghandi.) It is also necessary to appropriately define the "community". In the case of Los Angeles gangs, it might do to simply define "members" as the community, since there actually are powerful government entities to counter them. Yet the gangs are powerful in their territories. And the gangs feed off of the larger "community". There's a balance of trade, first off. But this gets back to root causes and such. The gangs provide a service, drug distribution. There's a conflict between the government and the gang and the gang seeks to preserve itself and its revenue streams. I think we can learn a LOT from the parallels between gangs and terrorists.

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