Post #41,413
6/6/02 12:13:49 PM
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The medicine is bitter and hard to swallow.
The truth is, we most certainly cannot control these people, nor can Israel, nor can Arafat. They can only be controlled by the community they live in. Currently that community not only tolerates terrorist activity, it encourages it and celebrates its victories.
We no longer live in a world of individuals. Everything is now so interconnected that communities are living organisms and people within them are semi-autonomous cells making up the organism.
Not all dangerous communities are fronted by governments. That doesn't mean they are not distinct and active entities which must be dealt with. We have to get accustomed to dealing with entities that are not governments. Los Angeles gangs, for instance, are similar communities.
Since only the community can take control, it is the community that must be punished until it's members learn to apply that control. While punishment should rightly be first against property, people will defend their property and many so called "innocents" will die. If they all chose to die before accepting their responsibilites, that is just tough.
Can that be called genocide? Perhaps. In any case, many will call it that - but in our current state of mobility, any member of a community is free to leave it and join some other community.
The difficulty we all face is defining the community to target. That's going to be very difficult, and some actual innocents are sure to die. Life is not easy.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #41,416
6/6/02 12:28:25 PM
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I agree with you
Another flavor of the same idea would be to take out all
relatives of proven terrorists. Just eradicate their bloodline.
It seems horrible at first blush......but then *IF* its a forgone
conclusion that innocents are going to die.....why not have it
be innocents which are likely to be valued by the terrorists?
Seems harsh that I might be offed for something my brother does....
but I think this is more discriminating than dropping whupass
on Kandahar.
-- William Shatner's Trousers --
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Post #41,417
6/6/02 12:32:41 PM
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That's easy to say, when it isn't you.
That's going to be very difficult, and some actual innocents are sure to die. Life is not easy. But we get all bent out of shape when our innocents die. Rather than adopting the attitude that life is not easy. Again, it's back to root causes. Why are the street gangs powerful? Because they control the drug trade and protection racket in their areas. So, no matter how many you jail, there will be more who will join because of the easy cash. Since only the community can take control, it is the community that must be punished until it's members learn to apply that control. I don't agree. The majority of the community is comprised of people who are NOT criminals. The people can be manipulated by the criminals because they have families and jobs and mortgages. It is the job of the government to PROTECT the community by REMOVING the criminals WITHOUT killing the innocents. If someone is dealing crack on your block, you would not appreciate the military bombing all the houses on your block because you couldn't remove the crack dealers yourself. If they all chose to die before accepting their responsibilites, that is just tough. Again, I'll use my crack house example. They are better armed than the citizens around them. They are willing to take our their vengence on the citizen's families. Yet it is up to the citizens to handle the problem or it is the citizen's own fault? Rather, how about we form a "police force" and train, equip and pay these people to handle dangerous situations. Then, the people this "police force" finds can be brought to trial and jailed.
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Post #41,423
6/6/02 1:06:19 PM
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I agree with you - when . .
. . an organized government truly is the head of the organism. Today, this is less and less the case.
As to the criminals being better armed and more vicious than the rest of the community, then it is the responsibility of the community to counter it by building a government that can counter the criminals, support that government and provide it cooperation and information needed to be effective.
If even that can't be done, then perhaps it is time to call in an outside government to put things right until the situation is under control, and cooperate with that government. The bitter truth is, the community should never have let that situation develop in the first place.
It is also necessary to appropriately define the "community". In the case of Los Angeles gangs, it might do to simply define "members" as the community, since there actually are powerful government entities to counter them.
The guilt of the whole must be applied to each and every member just as the guilt of a government is applied to each and every soldier in it's armed forces - if they're shooting at you, you shoot at all of 'em. Some didn't shoot at you, but you apply the guilt of the highest level that has control. You either do that or accept death for yourself.
Unfortunately, in the case of gangs, the community label will probably have to be extended to those who hide and aid members, making it more likely "innocents" will be harmed. Sometimes it's difficult to separate the real innocents from the pretend innocents and accidents will happen. You try to minimize accidents, but accept that they will happen, or accept death for yourself and your loved ones.
There are a zillion rationalizations and copouts to justify that the broader community is "innocent" and has no control. Unfortunately, there's no one else to assign that responsibility too. Take the responsibility or suffer the consequences. Life is not easy.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #41,430
6/6/02 1:35:18 PM
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chuckle...if we logically extend that out...
people get the government they deserve? (Just curious...but I do agree.)
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Post #41,433
6/6/02 2:00:26 PM
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You can extend that as far as you want.
Populations with highly corrupt governements can be observed to rather admire corruption and power brokering all the way down to the core level. There's a lot too much of that in the U.S. right now, if you ask me.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #41,437
6/6/02 2:44:22 PM
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A most embarrassing equivalence there
Noting, that is - that ~ half of our One Political Party with Two Right Wings: spends a significant % of its slogans: decrying 'The Govmint' as if it were a foreign occupying power. For decades this mantra has been featured prominently (I recall gramma ... ...)
Similarly: Donald Trump, Billy n'Bally, briefly: *Any* robber baron du jour - continues to be lionized, even by the victims of his (mostly it IS 'his') rapacity. Clearly ours is a culture which admires Winning via any means possible and especially do we admire,
Winning It All.. a var. of, ALL or: nothing much except, a commute to daily-hell.. forever.
No matter the pious periodic intoning of "how Fair is our Free Market", the clear message of this respect for the alpha-Raptors is: the vast majority of fellow citizens are simply fools, too 'incompetent' to emulate the raptors and Get Their's the Same Way!
So I guess that 'we' indeed get the government (and the inevitable local insurrections as follow) which we deserve -
Ashton
"Show me what you Worship, and I'll explain the ummm 'side effects'".
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Post #41,450
6/6/02 4:05:45 PM
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People get the government that the majority of them deserve.
Especially, but not exclusively, in a democracy.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
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Post #41,440
6/6/02 2:55:20 PM
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"should".
The bitter truth is, the community should never have let that situation develop in the first place. And what gave the mob the grip it has on the US is our little governmental experiment with outlawing alcohol. It's easy to ask that others sacrifice themselves. It's easy to decide to kill people who aren't living up to your standards. Yet there aren't ever many people willing to sacrifice themselves for their standards. (Strangely enough, this group includes the suicide bombers and cops and people like Ghandi.) It is also necessary to appropriately define the "community". In the case of Los Angeles gangs, it might do to simply define "members" as the community, since there actually are powerful government entities to counter them. Yet the gangs are powerful in their territories. And the gangs feed off of the larger "community". There's a balance of trade, first off. But this gets back to root causes and such. The gangs provide a service, drug distribution. There's a conflict between the government and the gang and the gang seeks to preserve itself and its revenue streams. I think we can learn a LOT from the parallels between gangs and terrorists.
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Post #41,431
6/6/02 1:42:54 PM
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Already being done, and yes they're fighting it
Since only the community can take control, it is the community that must be punished until it's members learn to apply that control. While punishment should rightly be first against property, people will defend their property and many so called "innocents" will die.
I'm sure you've heard of the (some would say draconian) rules that residents in government-supplied housing can be expelled if any co-resident is convicted of a drug offence, even away from the residence. This sounds like exactly what you call for: punishing the community in the hope that they will be able to exert the control over their own members that the government hasn't been able to.
Although, as with the Middle East problems being a byproduct of our oil dependance, the power of the LA gangs is a byproduct of the war on drugs. If we could fix the root causes -- reduce/eliminate our depepndance on (foreign) oil, decriminalize drugs (thus taking the money out of it) -- we would probably see the problems solve themselves much more effectively than we have managed.
===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #41,668
6/8/02 6:29:30 PM
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However -
These recent actions by the Government, to make abettors in '*projects' also subject to discipline - begs the question of (as Brandioch has pointed out several times):
* 'projects' - need for same? An entire thread in itself.
'Our' tolerance of a Government policy towards 'drugs that some people Like' (or toss in prostitution too, if you want; 'sex that some people Like') in its favorite theme of "War On ___"
We indeed tolerate this continuous thread of 'reasoning' re very many 'problems'. We have NOT begun to learn even the lessons of Prohibition and its bloody-well FORCED Repeal! It DID NOT WORK and it was the petri dish for The Mob which exists today.
'Victimless Crime' is a typically Murican oxymoron -I aver that it is a direct descendant of (Our version of) Puritanism: the nagging fear that somewhere somehow SomeOne is enjoying hisself in an unAuthorized Way.
Street Gangs, expanding prisons-for profit (a Growth Industry lobbied for wih massive funds from handsomely paid Guards), the entire NARC infrastructure which perpetrates 'confiscation for the direct cash benefit of the NARC Organization !! for just one aspect of the creeping unConstitutionality 'we' supinely accept ... ...
These all derive from the Puritanism just below the surface. And we are spawning YAN variant in all the new legislation aimed primarily at --> continuing the Murican War On __ mentality IMhO.
Root Causes. Find those, and the remedies become at least Thinkable. Otherwise, it's just all Demo/Repo, Librul/Cunservative *blab* ad infinitum. Sound and fury signifying Nothing. Solving? even less = exacerbating!
Ashton
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Post #41,655
6/8/02 4:56:39 PM
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Invoking Bogart
...apt given Marlowe's avatar: "Well, there are certain sections of New York, Major, that I wouldn't advise you to try to invade." From [link|http://www.ohiou.edu/~linguist/marmo/script5.htm|the greatest movie of all time].
Point being: while I agree with what Andrew's said, I disagree that it's commentary specific to the present. Or even the recently deceased century. Or millenium, take your pick.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.
[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/...a_alert.html]]
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Post #41,960
6/11/02 12:34:01 PM
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Re: The medicine is bitter and hard to swallow.
Perhaps Arafat can't control all those various anti-Israel organizations, but there are some he's the nominal leader of and one would think he should have known about the Iranian arms shipments.
Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
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