Post #41,143
6/4/02 3:04:22 PM
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Can someone help me troubleshoot this problem?
My windows PC had been having random freezes all last week. Very annoying. This weekend I went away, so I shut all PCs down.
Came back Sunday. Booted OS/2 machine (current incarnation of "darklord"). Predictably, it was fine. Booted Windows machine (current incarnation of "alex"). Alex froze on boot. Annoyed, I rebooted. It froze on boot. Annoyed, I rebooted. It froze on boot.
I went into bios, and reset it so that all the performance-enhancing goodies were turned off. Rebooted.
This time the machine didn't even come up.
then-alex:
Athlon 1000 on KT7 Raid MB, 384 mb ram (3 128 MB ram PCC133 SIMMS)
GEForce 4 MX card (AGP)
Adapted SCSI card
Delta Audiophile 24 bit sound card
Linksys 10/100 Ethernet card
3 EIDE hard drives
48x CD-Rom Drive
300 watt power supply
Troubleshooting steps already taken:
First thing, I pulled all my cards except the video card. The computer would turn on, but it wouldn't even run through POST.
Second thing, I pulled out all my ram and put in ram that I knew was good. At one point, I actually got it to boot... but I was never able to repeat it.
THEN I notice that the fan mounted over what my MB manual calls the "north bridge" is so gummed up with dust that it doesn't spin. "Aha," I think, "the board is overheating and that's why it doesn't work." So I clean the little bastard, it spins all nice and pretty. Boot up the machine, nada.
So then I think "dammit all, I've burned through the board." So yesterday I go out an dbuy a new board, which I really, really didn't want to do... an ASUS A7V133. I can only find a board that comes with a processor... whatever, can't seem to just buy a motherboard these days, at least not when you're in a hurry... so I now also own an Athlon xp 1800 processor. I install it, nothing happens.
So then after doing a bit of web research I see a post describing my symptoms to a "T", and that a possible solution is that my power supply isn't hefty enough... so I go and buy a 400 watt power supply. Still no luck.
Specific symptoms:
- when power is turned on, sometimes the fans will not run.
- when power is turned on, even if the fans do run, machine will not bootstrap BIOS, will not power up hard drives.
That's about all I can think of at the moment.
I have tried testing both motherboards with both an athlon 1000 and an athlon xp 1800 processor.
Does anyone know what the hell could be wrong with this thing? What other information do I need to supply?
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #41,144
6/4/02 3:19:10 PM
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Sounds like a power problem to me.
I have a 486 that died in similar ways. On rebooting it would get about half-way through the BIOS message and stop. Turned out the power supply fan had died, taking the PS with it. I replaced it with a PC Power and Cooling supply and it's been happy ever since.
It sounds like you have a power problem.
So then after doing a bit of web research I see a post describing my symptoms to a "T", and that a possible solution is that my power supply isn't hefty enough... so I go and buy a 400 watt power supply. Still no luck.
Specific symptoms:
- when power is turned on, sometimes the fans will not run.
- when power is turned on, even if the fans do run, machine will not bootstrap BIOS, will not power up hard drives.
ATX power supplies get signals from the motherboard. The won't turn on if the motherboard isn't supplying the right signals. As I understand it.
It used to be that AMD recommended specific power supplies. But they don't any more. Any "ATX 12V" supply should be fine for an Athlon these days.
Go back to basics.
1) Is the new PS you bought any good? I don't know how you can diagnose it without having it work in a PC. :-(
2) Install the motherboard with no cards at all. Does the PS run properly? Do the LEDs on the motherboard light properly? Does the motherboard cause the proper beeps through the system speaker?
If you can't get it to act right without anything installed, then either the new MB or new PS or both have problems.
After those work OK, plug in the video card and other cards sequentially after you verify the simpler configuration works.
HTH a bit. Best of luck.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #41,156
6/4/02 4:34:32 PM
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one off the wall maybe
Saw this once in my days of PC repairs. Find a circuit in your house with nothing running on it. No tv, lights turned off etc. Plug in there. One time had a brand new intel server hand built that would run in the shop but not at the business. Took a 100ft extension cord to another room and it ran fine, circuit overload.
thanx,
bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
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Post #41,166
6/4/02 5:06:53 PM
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I'll try that.
Who knows... might work.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #41,206
6/4/02 10:21:58 PM
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Alas, alack.
It didn't work. Plugged into a socket with nothing else hooked up to it (in a room we don't use much, so I'm pretty sure the circuit is unused.) Same problems, although it DOES appear that fans spin with more consistency.
I'm really stumped. This is really pissing me off. >:(
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #41,157
6/4/02 4:34:46 PM
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Best bet for testing PS
swap the power supplies between Darklord and Alex. Does the problem swap, or is it still the same?
Considering what you've swapped though, I'd doubt that your Motherboard, CPU or PS is the problem.
Have you tried also unplugging all drives (including your CD-ROM) except your Primary Master drive? (make sure the jumper is set appropriately) Also try another drive in that position.
~~~)-Steven----
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."
General George S. Patton
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Post #41,165
6/4/02 5:04:12 PM
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I've gone one further than that.
I've had everything unplugged -- all hard drives, cd rom drives, floppy drive, all of it.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #41,207
6/4/02 10:26:34 PM
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Hehehe.... Okay. Now we really get sticky...
Err... sticky buttons that is.
make sure all the LED and pushbutton leads are all disconnected.
Make sure you hook-up minimum needed to bootup (minimum memory, one HD, Video Card...etc)
Now... take a small screw driver and "short" the power-button leads on the header fer a quick second.
If it boots... well you now have decidedly experienced the single most difficult "consumer" PC problem to trouble-shoot I have ever experienced.
What it comes down to, the button was "sticking" and had occasionaly remained close but only just so. Sometimes it would be open enough to boot, sometimes not. Could be the "big button" has some junk behind it keeping the switch partially in. or maybe the spring is busted on your Windoze box... from pushing it so often... ;-)
Only solutions, clean or replace.
greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
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Post #41,208
6/4/02 10:41:30 PM
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you mean... it might be a problem with the TOWER?
Oh... if that turns out to be the case (ahem), I'm just going to cry. A lot. :P
LOL
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #41,217
6/4/02 11:15:20 PM
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Case in point!
Yes... I could be convinced of that!
If it turns out I boxed the problem... you gotta put it in the strip!
Something like "super computer program and hardware crippled by $.01 power switch"
That'd be gr8!
Hope (not really though) that is all it was.
greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
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Post #41,263
6/5/02 10:57:44 AM
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Ok, it's not the case
because I opened up a case that I knew worked (because I could boot on that machine, heh) and attached that "on" switch to the motherboard in question, and used that case's "on" switch to power up the MB. Same problem.
Since that configuration was working correctly, I went ahead and put the new CPU in that and tried to turn it on. No dice. So I'm wondering if perhaps I damaged that one while trying to install it. I don't know why they warn you not to press down on the CPU while installing the heat sink, and then make the heat sink impossible to hook up without using every goddamn muscle in your body...
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #41,341
6/5/02 9:13:38 PM
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BOG....
Wow, I'd have to have it in front of me...
Wish I had developed those remote hands sooner than later.
greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
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Post #41,359
6/6/02 1:40:39 AM
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On using force -
if you find some cockamamie way to support the board right under the CPU socket while persuading.. it helps.
Any chance of returning the mb + cpu and let seller 'test' it? Offhand I'd say that you have logically substituted about everything except the
Powered By ____
decal.
(Except, as Wade hinted at in another forum -- if there was a problem with the case-mounting - say Not making a one-point good ground? - well just maybe it'd work sitting on a piece of insulator and plugged in to all the entrails)
Luck,
Ashton
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Post #41,384
6/6/02 8:00:48 AM
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Grounding motherboards.
A friend had a problem with a motherboard some while back. Basically, he set it up on a desk to test it all prior to putting the thing in a case. Wouldn't boot reliably. So he found the docket and rang up the vendor. Took it over to them, whereupon they powered it up on a known insulated surface. It ran fine. :-)
Wade.
"Ah. One of the difficult questions."
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Post #41,212
6/4/02 10:59:06 PM
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Uh.. yeah
Was busy typing up a list of weird scenarios and plumb forgot the Ugly Cheap Switches they make from recycled Nippon beer cans over there.
More than once I've almost put in a Real Toggle Switch. Cheap bastards.
(Used to call mental trobleshooting er 'front panel milking', esp. w/ all the things on a scope -- but when a panel switch itself is fubar...)
PS Greg - have you grokked the bit about el-cheapo Alum electrolytics on Most MBs (at least last time I looked, heard rumors). That is - instead of paying for "low-ESR" they use ordinary 'lytics. (Yes I recall your helpful comment re much the same issue - on the 454A PS caps - but I'm talkin 'bout consumer-grade filters for those 1-V CPUs here).
I imagine a lot of MB failures in 2-4 years (another incentive for ya to dump a good one: who ever changes caps on a MB ??) Next mb I buy, I bring the mag glass and Look at those caps with dental mirror for: "<Lo-ESR>" somewhere.
Cheers,
Ashton
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Post #41,218
6/4/02 11:30:00 PM
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Saw a huge batch...
Of cheap 'lytics on a "modular" motherboard, fail miserably. Completely replaced all board with the probs, about 450ish.
NOW the replacement are even showning signs of failing again... this time, mica caps are popping. Aging is the cause. The manufacturer used a sub-standard ceramic to seal 'em up. goin through em all again.
Different motherboard manufacturer completely this time. Gateway has taken it on the chin big time with these. I heard a few institutions bought upwards of 10K+ of these machines.
We are a self service institution... getting $25 a machine to swap em out. So we actually do pretty good on the problems.
Now, we get to learn a completely new thing with IBM being our PC supplier!
Oh well.
greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
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Post #41,227
6/5/02 12:25:18 AM
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PC electronics appears most often to be a POS
By comparison with any decent not-consumer electronic device, that is. I was spoiled by looking at the too-fancy switcher in the Otrona.. then I looked inside the Osborne1 (and even the later Zorba). Ugh.
I guess PC Power & Cooling remains the engineered choice for PSs, but are there any really Premium mbs out there? Ditto cases with industrial switches and decent jacks? I'd think any bizness would pay a little extra for quality in those areas. Wait!.. no, I guess I wouldn't bet that.
Hey.. Otrona - had some PS mon leds for *each* PS with go no-go levels for green/red. You could peek in from case vents to see if the "summary for all" led was a nice green. I thought... (that being CP/M days) surely ALL later \ufffd-stuff would at least: make that kind of troubleshooting EZ.
Hah.. maybe the country that Deserves Billy, deserves equivalent-grade hdwre too.
What did you mean re the mod. mb "450ish"? Be that the COST of that sucker!? And how odd that new, good qual caps would fail soon - vastly too much ripple-current for the actual cap rating? If so, you'd not likely have room! for any rated higher (if there are any that can handle massive ripple current). Heh: water-cooled caps - add to list!
'Least on Tek, seems that the -8 V ps is often a canary - hi ripple in any of several totem-poled other supplies seems to knock it way off.
Shee-it I Hate working on Junque. Especially crap knowingly designed to fail soon for MBA marketing designs. We seem started down the other side of the QC curve now: having found out how to do Five-Nines reliability - the scum in marketing are designing for sabotage, but please to call it [some lie].
Ashton
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Post #41,338
6/5/02 9:05:28 PM
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Splain'd
about 450 in count. MOdular means "multi-piece" cost initially was alot less. BUt now after 2 replacements... well I believe Gateway is eating them big time. The real problem was was they used 13.5v caps.
Now the new boards are using 25v caps (good) and the mica's(err mylar...) are both made by Siemens. Both are premium lines of parts.
Plus, seems as though GW made a real effort to fix everything.
greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
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Post #41,211
6/4/02 10:47:21 PM
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Longshots
With vaguely similar symptoms, stripping all the way down on MB [almost..]: no POST doornail-dead.
But I'd stared right through: a *&$%@ cache plug-in chip, which another eyeball Noticed. It was *that*. The LAST thing removable.
As you have swapped both PSs AND MBs, etc. already - just maybe you have a cockamamie AC power distrib, as Box suggests. (As in - when ALL hi current stuff in a house is plugged in on one side of the 220 split pairs) Grounding alone - I would doubt.
It's really ODD about those fans not starting - as is it odd to have more than One thing broken..
It also can't hurt to measure a few of those DC voltages from new PS -- starting with the EZ place -- any cable has 5V, 12V jacks. This since,now you must doubt either the new PS OR the new MB/CPU combo (though you also swapped CPUs). I think you still cannot test your switcher without a nom. load on at least one of its PSs ie not naked (?) (Outside the el-cheapo computer ind. there are sometimes ballast resistors to enable the PS)
Jumpers wrong for CPU Lo-V/Hi-current section? = might also crowbar (not destroy) whole PS section. Any other PS problem will fail the MB POK (Power OK) line. I think.. that also would inhibit POST ever starting. Check every MB jumper in the cute manual?
Lastly - how is the new MB grounded to the case? This is usually supposed to be ONE HD termina/screw with teeth to make a good one-point ground / avert ground-loops. All the rest want to be (usually) insulated physical mounting points (only).
'Pologies if this is all old stuff,
Ashton
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Post #41,269
6/5/02 12:01:13 PM
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The more I test, the more confused I get
I'm going to have to give up pretty soon. As far as I can tell, I've done EVERYTHING within my power to make this thing work.
The working machine doesn't work when I put the new CPU in it. But when I put the old CPU in it, it works.
The nonworking machine doesn't work when I put the new OR the old CPU in it.
The nonworking machine doesn't work when I use a 300W or 400W power supply. Perhaps I need to go all the way up to 450? From what I've read, 400 should be sufficient.
The nonworking machine just doesn't work. Old motherboard, new motherboard, old CPU, new CPU (I even put a Duron CPU in there, no dice), original ram, working ram, old case, new case, nothing. I'm obviously doing something wrong, but I'm too disgusted to bother trying to figure it out.
Fuck computers. I'm about on the verge of learning a new goddamned trade. This is ridiculous.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #41,271
6/5/02 12:16:53 PM
6/5/02 12:29:54 PM
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Speak of the devil....
I'm putting a new PC together now. It worked fine when first turned on. I changed the BIOS settings some (turbo mode, etc.), put in the Win2K CD-ROM, rebooted, got a BIOS message that the floppy drive failed (noticed the power cable wasn't connected), Win2K started booting from the CD. I hit CAD to end the bootup, then turned the power off.
I connected the floppy power connector, powered it on and nothing. A LED lights on the motherboard, but the PS fan doesn't run.
:-(
I'm in the process of diagnosing it. I suspect something died in the PS.
PC Power and Cooling has an ATX power supply diagnosis page [link|http://www.pcpowercooling.com/support/index_ATX.htm|here] that I'm going through now. Maybe it'll help you too.
{added in edit}
< a few minutes later... >
In my case I didn't need to go through the PS diagnosis.
Since the system worked before I plugged in the floppy power connector, I unplugged the floppy power connector and powered the system up. It came up fine. I then turned it off again, reconnected the floppy power connector, and powered it up. It again came up fine.
I suspect that I didn't have the floppy power connector installed correctly, or gremlins....
I hope you figure out what's happening with your system.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #41,378
6/6/02 5:22:04 AM
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Interesting. Encouraging results.
I'm now posting from a cobbled-together alex. Poor guy. We'll see if he continues to work when I shut down and restart.
The hardware on my linux box worked just fine -- it was having horrid software problems, as evidenced in my "When Bad Computers Get Worse" storyline on Help Desk. So instead of trying to take all those parts over to my windows pc, I simply moved my alex hard drives over to the linux box, and put the linux hard drives on a shelf (where they still need to think long and hard about what they've done).
lo and behold, alex booted up.
More than that, Windows 2000 actually DETECTED the new motherboard, chipset, etc. and ADJUSTED automatically -- the first time ever a windows machine has ever done that for me.
So Windows was working.
Curious, I decided to swap out the linux box's cpu with the new one that came with the currently abandoned motherboard. It hadn't run on previous tests, so I didn't expect much...
... and sure enough, when I turned on the power, all the fans revved up, and the hard drives even revved up -- but nothing appeared on the monitor. So I decided to turn it off... but I hit reset instead...
... and LO AND BEHOLD, POST, BIOS, Hard Drives detected, load Windows 2000.
So I'm confused. But, when all is said and done, if this sucker reboots properly I'm willing to stay confused as long as the machine continues to work...
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #41,400
6/6/02 10:32:07 AM
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You call that encouraging?
So I'm confused. But, when all is said and done, if this sucker reboots properly I'm willing to stay confused as long as the machine continues to work...
[Shudder] I wish I could claim never to have said this to myself, but alas I do work with computers for a living.
===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #41,410
6/6/02 11:40:16 AM
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Yeah, well...
if the alternative is confusion and nothing working, I'll take confusion and stuff working instead. :)
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #41,452
6/6/02 4:24:04 PM
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Mysterly solved... and I AM AN IDIOT :)
Sheesh. I'm pretty embarrased now. My problem had nothing to do with a power supply, burned out CPU, burned out chip, or anything like that. It was, in fact, an improperly grounded motherboard.
This tower has been through 3 motherboards. The first motherboard was a different SHAPE than the next two, and the holes for the middle row of screws that attach it to the case were about an inch off from the next motherboard (and the new one). Just glancing at it, however, you can't really tell, and when I put the new motherboard in I didn't notice that the middle row of metal columns weren't actually lining up with the holes.
Miraculously, I used that motherboard for about a year with those posts not doing a damn thing to it. I guess it had been positioned "just right" or something. But I guess the board shifted ever so slightly in the last few weeks, and everything started screwing up.
When I put in the new motherboard (thinking the dead fan on the other one had perhaps toasted one of the processors), it didn't work at all.
So after cobbling together a frankenstein windows machien based on working parts from my linux box, and reporting initial success here, I started combing over "the wreckage" (my office is quite a sight right now) and I noticed the posts didn't line up with the holes. So I moved them.
And now the !@#$% thing works.
Good God, I feel like an idiot. :D
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #41,455
6/6/02 4:45:20 PM
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This is like the 'made for IE' pages that break in Mozilla
It's always been broken. It's just now that something is complaining about it that you notice.
===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #41,477
6/6/02 8:13:36 PM
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Idiot? Come on!
The worst kind of problems to fix are the ones where things fail and you genuinely "Didn't change anything!". So hey, don't be so concerned. And enjoy basking in the radiant light of all that working-motherboardy goodness. Or something :)
On and on and on and on,
and on and on and on goes John.
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Post #41,485
6/6/02 10:32:30 PM
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Not an idiot.
If anything, I'd say the motherboard makers are idiots for never ever documenting how their boards are supposed to be grounded. Whilst I can't say I've ever had this problem, I [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=41384|posted earlier] about a friend who did. And he's experienced at building PCs! So that problem bites even the best of us.
Wade.
"Ah. One of the difficult questions."
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Post #41,516
6/7/02 9:02:06 AM
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Definitely Not an idiot.
I have to concur with Wade. I've been doing this for almost 15 years and have never run into this problem. Now I will be aware of it. So, not an idiot, but a "thank you" for exposing another problem area and suffering through the problem.
Come to think of it, I may have a system that I took out of service because I couldn't fix it... symptoms are very similiar to your's. Hmmmm, now if I can only remember where I stashed it....
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com|Joe]
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Post #41,601
6/7/02 7:06:47 PM
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Oddly though -
I recall that at least one 'manual' with a 486 mb, pointedly referred to 'THE Grounding point' and with a terse use of ~ phrases like .. "to prevent ground-loops" .. "ensure a hi-current ground return, use a star-washer" etc. It carefully advised using insulating washers for the mere mechanical mount points. That stuck in my 'lectronic memory as being: Sound Advice.
But then.. I tend to read these things 'cause I'm lazy. I'd rather read about What Can Go Wrong than sleuth. Still - only remember this stuff being hinted at once (in maybe a mere couple dozen or so overall installs = pittance).
Ashton
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Post #41,702
6/9/02 2:14:42 AM
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That's rare!
I've never seen any such advice in motherboard manuals. And I've built more than a half a dozen over the years.
Wade.
"Ah. One of the difficult questions."
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Post #41,706
6/9/02 2:31:35 AM
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Don't recall ever seeing "ground loop" mentioned . .
. . in regard to computers, though it certainly is in audio stuff, where a signal can still be "significant" at a very tiny % of the main signal.
Many older boards were, however, essentially "single ground point" with one screw up near the power connection and everything else supported by plastic standoffs. The three 200-MHz and 233-MHz AMD K6 boards I just stripped out of computers one of my clients made me haul away are like that.
Current motherboard thinking seems to be "ground plane" with as much sheet within the board as possible and 7 to 9 ground to chasis points. Plastic motherboard standoffs are no longer used at all, it's all "bolt to metal" now.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #41,792
6/10/02 1:59:14 AM
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Could be mfg.-memory on that phrase..
After all - it is an analog phenom. (Could screw up small biases though) But now I'm curious, so will make trip to basement and see if one of the manuals survived..
As to that 'encapsulated ground plane' thingie - recall a few years ago in ED (Elec. Design) a treatise on the mb difficulties of getting the design s/ware to produce a decent model for producing good pulse rise-times (article was re RAMBUS at the time - showing GHz fancy 'eye' displays on a $60 K HP scope). Outta my league. But RAMBUS sounded like a loooser, even then - you Needed that HP just to *check* a module! they said; forget the little $1-400 memory tester boxes. Ugh.
Not surprising then, that the new mbs might want multiple good edge grounds, even if the GHz stuff is localized - the memory sockets spread it out.
Yawn.. we're all getting jaded with GHz stuff everywhere, while nobody knows Ohm's Law.
Ashton
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