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New No, I cannot locate the USofA on a map.
The USA is everywhere in the world. If we bomb someone, we bomb ourselves. If we blockade someone, we blockade ourselves. The USA is everywhere in the world, and the world is here in the USA as well. Perhaps that's not so obvious in Podunk, but you certainly can't miss it in Los Angeles.

Crooks, criminals and warloards love blockades. It increases the price they can demand for the goods they control the flow of, and it increases their control over the innocents within their sphere - in fact, the only people hurt by blocades and "economic sanctions" are those sainted innocents.

Notice how quickly our blockade removed Castro from power in our own back yard, and how much it benefitted the innocent people of Cuba. The only reason that moronic blockade stands is to please a strong block of votes in a state upon which presidential elections sometimes hinge.

Sure we are allies with most of the developed world. We have also been at war with most of them at one time or another. Their cooperation with our blocades has been on a par with our cooperation with their blockades - approaching Zero as a limit - often as the upper limit rather than the lower.

Freezing assets works even better than blockades. As often as not we find the assets we are freezing are our own assets as well. And if we get too liberal with freezing assets within our reach, everyone will become accustomed to keeping assets out of our reach, which will not work at all to our advantage.

You cannot (we hope, anyway) legally arrest people on speculation, nor just because they associate with people of whom you do not approve, or because you disagree with their political opinions. We tried that once or twice and it's called McCarthyism and witch hunting. People can't even be arrested because they come from a hostile country - most of us have at one time or another, and when this has been done it is soon revaled as needless persecution of innocents and allies.

Yes, killing innocents is unjust - but justice is a conceit of human society, it does not exist in nature. Unfortunately it is the nature of innocents to be killed - that, in fact, defines innocents. If they hadn't been killed they'd probably be found to be just a guilty as the rest of us.

Life exist by killing life. Even if you are a vegetable, you strive to block out the sun and suck up the moisture, to your neighbor's detriment. Forest trees strive for harder wood so their limbs can saw down their neighbors in the wind - while that neighbor grows soft wood to accelerate growth so as to shade the hardwood to death. Sometimes one wins, sometimes the other depending on circumstances. If you are not a vegetable you live by killing life and eating it.

As humans we strive for a "higher" ideal, which is of our own design and craft, and has nothing to do with nature - but we still must live as creatures of nature, "red of tooth and claw". Sometimes we have to make the hard choices in violation of our self made ideals. Sometimes we have to kill innocents - before they get a chance to kill us. In life, nobody is a non combatant.*

Please pardon me for jumping into the middle of a thread I haven't read all of, but it looked too tedious for my very limited attention span.

* See Ambrose Beirce: Non Combatant, n. A dead Quaker.



[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Minor disagreement.
Notice how quickly our blockade removed Castro from power in our own back yard, and how much it benefitted the innocent people of Cuba.
Blockades do NOT work to remove an existing government.

That's why Castro and Saddam are still in power.

Freezing assets works even better than blockades. As often as not we find the assets we are freezing are our own assets as well.
Eh? What do you mean?

And if we get too liberal with freezing assets within our reach, everyone will become accustomed to keeping assets out of our reach, which will not work at all to our advantage.
Ummm, Andrew, check that logic. If we take the money from the criminals often enough, then the criminals won't leave their money where we can take it?

Damn, they're some lazy criminals if they haven't moved what money they can already.

You cannot (we hope, anyway) legally arrest people on speculation, nor just because they associate with people of whom you do not approve, or because you disagree with their political opinions.
Eck-fucking-zactly!

We need PROOF. (or a legal rendition thereof).

Otherwise, we're just another bully warlord with the biggest stick on the planet.

Yes, killing innocents is unjust - but justice is a conceit of human society, it does not exist in nature.
Again, eck-fucking-zactly! And "hypocrisy" is another human conceit. Claiming it is "just" for you to kill innocents but "unjust" for someone else to do so.

As humans we strive for a "higher" ideal, which is of our own design and craft, and has nothing to do with nature - but we still must live as creatures of nature, "red of tooth and claw".
I'll agree. But only with the basis.

Sometimes we have to make the hard choices in violation of our self made ideals.
And this is the part that I disagree with.

If you "violate" your "ideals"......

Well, in MY opinion, you can NEVER violate your ideals.

You just haven't CORRECTLY stated your ideals.

Which is why I keep hammering on how our actions are identical to the terrorist's actions.

OUR ideals are EXACTLY the same as THEIR'S.

Kill anyone who opposes us. Be they soldiers, women or children.

We can find it within ourselves to rise above the law of the jungle. Yet there will always be those who will not.

The problem with morals and ideals is that they RESTRICT your actions.

Not that they demand recompensation AFTER you've performed the action.

Having morals and ideals mean that there are actions you will NOT perform.

If you will perform such actions, no matter how you justify them or rationalize them or claim that you "had" to do them...

It is still the same. You claimed ideals and morals you did not posses.

And all such human conceits as "justice" and "freedom" and "equality" are ONLY available as long as we NEVER try to rationalize setting them aside. No matter WHAT the provocation.

Please pardon me for jumping into the middle of a thread I haven't read all of, but it looked too tedious for my very limited attention span.
No problem. But I think we've gone off of the thread and into philosophy.
     What we're facing. - (bepatient) - (79)
         Verily. - (Ashton)
         What is most striking to me... - (screamer) - (49)
             Frankly... - (bepatient) - (28)
                 Re: Frankly... - (Arkadiy) - (26)
                     Which boils down to... - (bepatient) - (25)
                         You're revealing your assumptions. - (Brandioch) - (24)
                             What assupmtions. - (bepatient) - (23)
                                 You're getting closer. - (Brandioch) - (22)
                                     So we should... - (bepatient) - (21)
                                         It's called a "clue". You may not recognize it. - (Brandioch) - (20)
                                             Yep...there's that losing spirit - (bepatient) - (19)
                                                 That's the spirit Bill.. - (Ashton)
                                                 So what you're saying is your recommendation is a total fail - (Brandioch) - (17)
                                                     Nope....you're confusing yours and mine. - (bepatient) - (16)
                                                         Sounds like your Alzheimer's is kicking in with a vengence. - (Brandioch) - (15)
                                                             Then please, oh wise one...enlighten us with your plan. - (bepatient) - (14)
                                                                 You need to brush up on our criminal justice system. - (Brandioch) - (13)
                                                                     Pretty weak. - (bepatient) - (11)
                                                                         Net result: demonstration that this is a genuine Conundrum - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                             Defense in depth. - (Brandioch)
                                                                         Yep, you've got Alzheimer's. - (Brandioch) - (8)
                                                                             It seems that your plan is still missing... - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                                                 Bill "Strawman" Pathetic. - (Brandioch) - (6)
                                                                                     If I may - some comments. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                                                                         Answers. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                             Clarifcation of my inquiry. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                                                 More. - (Brandioch)
                                                                                     I see your originality is still intact - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                         Reading.....with comprehension. - (Brandioch)
                                                                     lotsa criminals and no Justice :) -NT - (boxley)
                 You may be quite right re the outcome. - (Ashton)
             Again, I must disagree... - (Simon_Jester)
             Hatred, not at their level - (orion) - (18)
                 We are as bad as they are and... as good. - (screamer) - (17)
                     That type of thought process used to amaze me. - (Brandioch) - (13)
                         But Brandioch... - (Simon_Jester)
                         what to do - (boxley) - (2)
                             Close - (bepatient) - (1)
                                 Now put some names to those people and you'll see the prob. - (Brandioch)
                         Yes - (screamer) - (8)
                             Can you locate the USofA on a map? - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                 Doesn't work - (bepatient)
                                 Yeah... - (screamer) - (3)
                                     Ummm, did you miss the heading of this forum? - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                         Nope... - (screamer) - (1)
                                             Score it however you want to. - (Brandioch)
                                 No, I cannot locate the USofA on a map. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                     Minor disagreement. - (Brandioch)
                     Et tu Brute? - (Ashton) - (1)
                         The evil that men do lives after them... - (screamer)
                     During WW-II, the Japanese were considered to be... - (a6l6e6x)
         Isn't this humorous... - (Simon_Jester) - (27)
             no...not really - (bepatient) - (26)
                 chuckle - (Simon_Jester) - (25)
                     Of course there's the fact that he was an Idealist - - (Ashton) - (24)
                         Close... - (Simon_Jester) - (23)
                             Dear sir, if you are referring to moi - (screamer) - (22)
                                 Maybe more ironical than ha-ha? - (Ashton)
                                 I think it is hilarious. - (Brandioch) - (18)
                                     I guess you missed their message. - (bepatient) - (17)
                                         Nope...I didn't - (Simon_Jester) - (5)
                                             Dunno. Who? - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                 Actually you.... - (Simon_Jester) - (3)
                                                     Nope... - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                         Sigh...somehow I knew you wouldn't see the humor... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                                             Ok...I get it. - (bepatient)
                                         Ah, but there is a difference. - (Brandioch) - (10)
                                             C'mon now... - (bepatient) - (9)
                                                 Hint: was it Guatemala? Nicaragua? El Salvador? - (Ashton) - (8)
                                                     What... - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                         That's what I've previously established. - (Brandioch) - (6)
                                                             ROFL - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                                 Whatever. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                     Why bother. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                         That's funny. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                             High Density - (bepatient)
                                                                         Oh Goodie! ______... a poll. - (Ashton)
                                 He's certainly a pawn... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                     Sorry for the noise - (screamer)

Where's the pick-a-nick bas-ket?
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