That was 1980 and I swore I would never again bet on the intellect of the American People.
Heh. I lost the only bet I ever made on an election.
That was 1980 and I swore I would never again bet on the intellect of the American People. |
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Yet you're convinced they agree with you about Hillary vs Donnie? >:-)
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I don't think they agree with me.
I think the majority will elect him because they think he'll be a good president. Which is delusional. We don't have a shot at a "good" President this time around. I'm just unconvinced that Trump would be worse than Hillary. Why? Which one has called for a Single Payer healthcare system? Which one voted for the Iraq War? Which one is disliked by Wall Street? Which one opposes TPP? Which one is disliked by the MIC? This is a 2008 redux. If Hillary and Trump are the candidates and you go into a coma the night before the election in November, sleep for four years, awaken and look around, you won't be able to tell who won the election. |
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Eh?
Perhaps you're rushed, but your questions don't make much sense if you're comparing HRC and Donnie. (Bernie can't win the nomination, let alone the White House.) Trump's "proposals" for health care reform - no single payer stuff there. It's just standard GOP smoke and mirrors - Ryan would love it. Hillary said the Iraq war vote was a mistake. Has Donnie ever acknowledged a mistake? etc., etc. Read HRC's health proposals and tell me again that there's no difference between them. Trump is brain damaged. ;-) But, seriously, you shouldn't vote for him or even take him seriously (except as a cautionary tale). Read his "policies", don't just take his word-salad speeches for it. Cheers, Scott. |
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Not much difference that I can see.
Private Health Insurers are a permanent fixture of both policy proposals, but only Hillary's perpetuates the mandate. And like it or not, that's rightly called fascism. Which isn't too surprising when you consider the source. But, hey, it's not just me that thinks she's going to lose: That is, Trump is likely to decisively beat Clinton in virtually all of the states that she has performed strongly in so far, and seems poised to win many of the states she lost as well. This leaves her relying heavily on the solidly blue states, which overwhelmingly voted against her in the primaries, suggesting that enthusiasm will not be high with her base. Forget national polling. When one takes a sober look at the electoral map—at who can turn out their base in solidly partisan states and appeal in swing states, based on how the primaries have turned out thus far, the edge is cleanly with Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton. http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/03/18/hillary-clinton-will-lose-to-donald-trump/ |
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Oh well.
Your blinders are on pretty tight if you can't see the difference. And, as I'm sure you know, the numbers on Bernie's single-payer Medicare for All proposal don't add up. If Bernie is so very popular, why is Democratic voter turnout lower than in 2008? Why isn't he beating Hillary if he's so very popular? Where's his Political Revloution™? TheHill: Unfortunately, the need for speed and campaign spin hides the truth that is publicly available in voter turnout data. Our data driven research finds that Democrats should be confident in their November coalition and Republicans shouldn’t be measuring the West Wing drapes anytime soon. As many have already said, Bernie has failed if his objective was to start a Political Revolution™. Record millions of new voters haven't shown up to vote for him. He has had decades to flesh out his proposals, but couldn't answer simple questions about how he would actually do the things he's talking about at a newspaper interview. He raised some issues that are important, and that's good, but enough people weren't buying the messenger. We on the left are supposed to strive to make things better, but to also be driven by data and models and dispassionate analysis of the way things exist in the world. Don't believe the hype! ;-) Cheers, Scott. |
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How many Independents are there today? How many closed primaries?
And Jesus H. Christ man, the Daily News hack job where the editors were *wrong* on the facts and Bernie was right? Have you just started parroting Hillary's campaign releases exclusively now? That's the best you've got? Our primary is Tuesday and I'm toying with missing my chance to vote for Bernie and voting for Trump in the Republican primary instead. |
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And Bernie did get Hillary to adopt a lot of his policies.
Of course, she's a pathological liar and will never actually try to implement any policy the MIC, Big Pharma and Wall Street don't sanction. But at least he forced her to change her campaign rhetoric. |
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vote for bernie, that race is in a statistical dead heat, the greasy rat wont win
always look out for number one and don't step in number two |
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Thanks, will do.
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Your predictions are duly noted
Private Health Insurers are a permanent fixture of both policy proposals, but only Hillary's perpetuates the mandate. And like it or not, that's rightly called fascism.Say what? Our fathers' generation fought a war* to defeat private health insurers? Should Trump be elected, you will be entitled to taunt the rest of us as triumphantly as you wish, and you may be assured that I, for one, will cringe like a whipped cur, and acknowledge your genius. I think this outcome unlikely. And you, will you acknowledge in the event of a Trump defeat in November, that your judgment was faulty, or will you extend your approach in this small circle to the electorate at large, and insist that theirs is flawed? Be prepared for some good-natured ribbing in these precincts. cordially, *Image: Italian health care, circa 1960 (screen grab from La Notte) It is apparently this we fought to keep from our shores. |
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Two things.
1. Article 6 of the Labor Charter of Fascist Italy states, in part, "A corporation constitutes the organization of one field of production and represents its interests as a whole. Since the interests of production are national interests, the corporations are recognized by law as state organizations by virtue of this representation." Article 9 then states, "The intervention of the State in economic production takes place only when private initiative is lacking or is insufficient, or when the political interests of the State are involved." What's most striking to me is that the ACA and Hillary Clinton's positions on healthcare or more emphatically right wing than that. Like Mussolini's Italy, Clinton's initial presumption is that private enterprise should be in charge of the economic production related to healthcare delivery. But the historical fascists had an escape clause for that, literally, "when private initiative is ... insufficient." No one can look at our healthcare delivery system and conclude the efforts of the corporations is sufficient. Yet, Obama and Clinton are such die-hard Corporatists that they are incapable of supporting State intervention. Their healthcare policies are thus actually *more Corporatist* than those of Fascist Italy. 2. If Trump is defeated (assuming, as is likely, he'll be running against former Walmart Board member and current Wall Street handmaiden), I'll acknowledge that I again guessed wrong about which false choice was successful at conning the masses into believing they were worthy of the office. If you'll acknowledge that, should the election turn out as you anticipate, we put Dick Cheney in a skirt in the White House. |
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"Should be" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there...
From her web site: Continue to support a “public option”—and work to build on the Affordable Care Act to make it possible. As she did in her 2008 campaign health plan, and consistently since then, Hillary supports a “public option” to reduce costs and broaden the choices of insurance coverage for every American. To make immediate progress toward that goal, Hillary will work with interested governors, using current flexibility under the Affordable Care Act, to empower states to establish a public option choice. Just words, though, amirite? :-/ Cheers, Scott. |
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my brother in law worked will hillary back in the day on the original plan
we would all carry an id card in our wallet which will have embedded info about our health care needs/requirements that would be presented to a phycisian of choice with zero co-pays. When I explained that as a Native American they are used to having the government track and use that info the average Joe schmoo would resist like you were going to tattooo 666 on their foreheads. So yes, hillary back in the day was for a single payer program. But as you all keep reminding me people change so no doubt her position has been nuanced. always look out for number one and don't step in number two |
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People are afraid of change, especially when politicians ramp up irrational fears.
I remember fears about National ID Cards too, growing up. But people get over it, over time. And many of those who pushed the fears, are the same people pushing the need for all kinds of government ID cards to vote, to collect benefits, to enroll your kids in school, etc., etc. There wasn't much of an outcry about enhanced drivers licenses after 9/11 (that I recall anyway, other than the cost). People who have passports don't worry that Big Government is going to come and arrest them or something. People who put their bank info and everything else on their iPhones don't seem to worry too much about having a standard way to store that information. People who track their every step with a FitBit don't seem to worry about having all that information recorded on the Cloud somewhere. People who send a vial of spit off to 23AndMe don't seem to worry about giving up their DNA. Yeah, there are differences between private entities and The Government. But The Government isn't an all-seeing-eye that Knows Everything About You. It's a bunch of separate walled-off fiefdoms that are very protective of their turf. The FBI hates the CIA. The CIA hates the NSA. The TSA hates everyone. ;-) Fears of an ID card being misused are overblown. But fears that ID card access requirements will disenfranchise people, prevent them getting benefits, etc., etc. are valid and must be addressed. Cheers, Scott. |
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Yep, she's evolved.
In 1994, when advocating for comprehensive health care reform as first lady, Clinton told reporters that if Congress didn't pass a reform bill that year, the nation would eventually embrace a single-payer plan. But then big Insurance and the banks started paying her millions in "speaking fees" and today she says ... "I want you to understand why I am fighting so hard for the Affordable Care Act," she said at Grand View University after hearing from a woman who spoke about her daughter receiving cancer treatment thanks to the health care law. "I don't want it repealed, I don't want us to be thrown back into a terrible, terrible national debate. I don't want us to end up in gridlock. People can't wait!" http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-clinton-single-payer-health-care-will-never-ever-happen/ From "inevitable" to "pie in the sky" and it only cost the corporations affected a few million. Very good deal for them. |
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No deal
If Trump is defeated (assuming, as is likely, he'll be running against former Walmart Board member and current Wall Street handmaiden), I'll acknowledge that I again guessed wrong about which false choice was successful at conning the masses into believing they were worthy of the office. If you'll acknowledge that, should the election turn out as you anticipate, we put Dick Cheney in a skirt in the White House.Har. So if Clinton prevails in November and I decline to "acknowledge that...we put Dick Cheney in a skirt in the White House," then you will maintain that your April prediction of a Trump victory was spot-on, vote tallies notwithstanding. There's no way I'm going to put that high comedy at risk. Have you ever considered looking into a gig at WorldNetDaily? They have a whole stable of regular contributors, several of these inferior to you in points of style and internal coherence, who are, however, similarly untethered from reality. cordially, |
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"Untethered from reality"?
I put it to you that I recognize the reality of Hillary's positions. I see her for what she is and that you and Scott, by echoing the false claims her campaign has made about Senator Sanders are losing your grasp on reality. Further, NEITHER of you have answered my question. Does it not trouble you that Hillary will not allow the American People to know what she said to the bankster class behind closed doors? Even in light of the fact that the banksters were required to hire a stenographer at their expense but whose work is wholly owned by Hillary? All else being equal, that doesn't trouble you? Since the answer to that question would appear to be in the negative from you both, I have to ask, on what basis do you paint your picture of reality? Why do you find her campaign rhetoric a better reflection of the reality of her positions when time and time again that campaign rhetoric has proven so malleable? |
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Reality and its tethers
Since we’ve been discussing the likely outcome of the 2016 election, which you are predicting will result in a Trump victory and I am predicting a Clinton victory, the November results will demonstrate whether your feet or mine were planted on more substantial ground. If the contest is close, which I do not rule out, your prediction will appear less droll than it does today, and if the short-fingered vulgarian prevails, I will make certain that one of the last things I do before mixing up and downing that Drano cocktail will be to post a handsome tribute here to your perspicacity. Am I troubled “that Hillary will not allow the American People to know what she said to the bankster class behind closed doors?” Since you ask, not particularly. I assume that she tailored her remarks to her audience, and also that, with the honorarium check not yet transacted, she did not glower at the assembled arbitrageurs and snarl, “As for you filthy bloodsuckers, I’m going to have the tumbrels lined up three deep all along Wall Street come January, and then I’ll personally drive the first bulldozer that pushes your mutilated carcasses en masse into an EPA Superfund site.” I imagine she probably told them that it was a pity that that mean old socialist from Vermont was saying bad things about them, that it was greatly to be regretted that their contributions to American prosperity were not better understood and appreciated, that she trusted nevertheless that they would soldier nobly on, et cetera. Quelle surprise! You seem to have fastened onto the idea that I and Another_Scott have clambered ardently aboard the Clinton bandwagon. I won’t presume to speak for Scott, but I my own support of HRC, while increasingly solid, has little enthusiasm to it. I could wish for better political chops and for more evidence of contemplated caution in the conduct of foreign affairs. I also hold her surname against her, a bit, because I think it unhealthy in a democracy that executive power should be passed back and forth between a couple of families over the course of a few decades (strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government), although this is but one symptom of a complex of maladies at present assailing us. It would be pleasant to have a better class of candidates to choose among, and to have a ruling class more far-seeing and less madly avaricious to underwrite the roster made available, and for that matter to have an electorate less desperate, depraved and ill-informed. And I want a goddamn pony while we're at it. So I will vote for Mrs. Clinton, if she is the nominee, in November (or for Senator Sanders, if it be he; against any conceivable Republican nominee I would even vote for, say, Jim Webb were a deadlocked Philadelphia convention to nominate him, although in that event I would depart the polling place with every molar a shattered stump) because I recognize that the alternatives would be worse by far. Roy Edroso, he of the admirable alicublog, relates how, in advance of the 2008 election, an associate warned that Obama would inevitably disappoint him. “Disappointment,” he replied, “will be a welcome change after eight years of daily shame and horror.” Knowing as we know now how modest was the change as measured against the hope, would the voters who turned out for this president in 2008 have done better to cast their ballots for Ralph Nader, that selfless character capering again beneath the banner of the Greens that year, and so exonerating themselves from any complicity in stepped-up drone warfare, in expanded NSA surveillance, in the failure to close Guantanamo or to pass single-payer? And had these high principles tipped the results so that the team of Johnny Walnuts and Princess Dumbass of the North Woods had prevailed, wouldn’t that have, like, been a totally cool way to heighten the contradictions? Heck, I’ll bet we’d have had our workers’ soviets up and running years ago. We might even be ginning up the show trials by now. No, the perfect is the enemy of the good. Get the perfect if you can, but settle for the good. If the good isn’t available, settle for the lousy if the other alternative is the lethal. That’s my approach to this year’s election, but it doesn’t make me a “shill” for Clinton. As you have observed, you live in benighted Indiana, which will almost certainly put its electoral votes in the service of a man with freakishly tiny hands late in the year (and with your help!), so you may take comfort in knowing in the likely event of a Clinton victory that your own hands, which I have no doubt are well within the range of normal adult male dimensions, will remain spotless and unsullied. cordially, |
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Re: "Untethered from reality"?
Further, NEITHER of you have answered my question. Does it not trouble you that Hillary will not allow the American People to know what she said to the bankster class behind closed doors? I'm not troubled by what a famous private person said at an investor conference. Why should she give away something that people were willing to pay $200k to hear? Business Insider (quoting a NR article): Last Thursday, Clinton spoke for the AIMS Alternative Investment Conference hosted by Goldman Sachs, a closed event exclusively for Goldman clients. AIMS is an annual conference that explores the latest strategies and products available to financial advisers. At the event, Clinton offered what one attendee described to me as “prepared remarks followed by questions.” OMG, she's clearly hiding something!!11 This shows she clearly promised the Wall Street Banksters all kinds of favors, in 2013, when she wasn't in office, when she hadn't announced she was running for anything, etc., etc. But no, it means that G-S has bought Hillary. (roll-eyes) There's several conferences out there called AIMS, and several called Alternative Investment Conference, but I haven't found any links for this G-S meeting. It's interesting that the original report always goes back to that NR story... You know that the minute she releases any transcript, and nothing is found (because you know nothing will be found), the howler monkeys will just start screaming that the transcripts aren't authentic, that she really made the promises after the speeches, etc., etc. "The only way to win is not to play." is the lesson when it comes to these unreasonable demands made of her. FWIW. Cheers, Scott. |
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she got $275k per speech just because? She wasn't running for anything? cmon Man :-)
If they thought for sure she wasn't going to run for anything, they would have had her pay to show up at the meeting. always look out for number one and don't step in number two |
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I thought it was $20B per speech.
It's like the number of undocumented workers in the US - the number goes up every time it's cited. ;-) The NYTimes said that she got around $200k a speech, just like Geithner and similar former cabinet members were getting. G-S wanted to impress their clients at a conference, so they were willing to pay HRC a bunch of money to have her speak at their event. That's the way conferences work. She had a lot of direct knowledge of what was happening in the world (she traveled more than any previous SoS). Investors looking for "alternative investments" would find her thoughts on the subject valuable. G-S would get the benefit of having more clients interested in "alternative investments". FWIW. Cheers, Scott. |
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that is what GS gets after she is elected
always look out for number one and don't step in number two |
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Unreasonable demands?
So, you agree with the Citizens United definition of corruption because only an outright quid pro quo proves corruption? Her appearance with Blankfein and subsequent silence on what was spoken is suspect at best, plainly suggestive of corruption (for values of "corrupt" different from the Citizen's United decision) at worst. Did those "talks" involve any collusion between Hillary and G-S? Since when is it "unreasonable" for the public to review any and all documentation related to such meetings which could be evidence of collusion between the peeple's candidate and the powerful, monied interests that destroyed so many American (and foreign) families? If there's no there, there, then why not release the transcripts? You can't seriously believe "she didn't know she was going to run for President" in 2013, can you? And if she had the remotest inkling that she might, how astute of her was it to have closed door meetings with the folks who completely trashed the economy through unscrupulous behavior and instead of suffering any consequences, became even larger and more powerful as a result of their crimes? Moreover, if the monied bankster class thought there was zero chance she'd run for president, do you actually think they'd want to hear her and influence her in whatever way they did during those secret meetings? No, sorry. I cannot "know nothing will be found" until I am able to read those transcripts. I'm not a dutiful Hillbot believing whatever "truth du jour" is being propagated by the Clinton campaign. |
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She . was . a . private . citizen . at . the . time.
Sheesh, man, chill out. The woman has a 8 year record as Senator. She has a 4 year record as Secretary of State. She's released decades of her personal tax returns. She's been in the national public eye since 1992. She's the most closely examined candidate for president in history. What could possibly be in her speech to an investment conference, or the Long Island Association, or the Gap Inc., or the National Association of Convenience Stores, or Let's Talk Entertainment, or the US Green Building Council that would be so important as to illuminate her character or whatever compared to what else is already out there? Do you really think that after all she's been through she wasn't extremely careful about what she said in those speeches? This speeches stuff is yet another smear campaign orchestrated by Judicial Watch and their comrades. Get a grip. :-) Cheers, Scott. |
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Dude, I don't care about her speeches to workers.
You know, people who actually create or market tangible products. It's the people who nearly destroyed the world's economy who are willing to pay her 200,000+ per hour to, er, cough, cough, wheez, hear her talk that I'm concerned about. You're right. She does have a record. She is on record for approving the repeal of Glass Stegall (which I will always believe was Bill Clinton's way of saying, "You impeach me? Okay, I'm going to screw the entire world!"). She is on record as opposing reinstatement of Glass Stegall, which is the ONLY thing that protects us from Wall Street greed. She's just too damned cozy with them and if she can't share with us what she said to them, well, for me, there's a trust barrier there about the size of the Grand Canyon that I will never be able to traverse. That by itself is enough for me. Throw in War Hawkishness that makes everyone but, perhaps, Dick Cheney blush, the "Gold Standard" of the TPP, the pro-fracking, the Iraq War vote, and on and on and it really is too much for a lifelong Democrat, let alone a quasi-Marxist. ;0) |
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Glass Steagal didn't apply to AIG, CountryWide, Lehman, etc.
She is on record as opposing reinstatement of Glass Stegall, which is the ONLY thing that protects us from Wall Street greed. Mighty broad brush you've got there. Mark Thoma: Did repeal cause the crisis? On this point, Hillary Clinton is correct: The evidence points elsewhere. For the most part, the main problems during that crisis didn't involve banks that offered both commercial and investment services. Instead, the problems were primarily at traditional investment banks. Had Glass-Steagall remained in place, the financial crisis would almost surely have happened anyway. FWIW. Cheers, Scott. |
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Good $DEITY. Now we're down to old Clinton Campaign nonsense.
One of the most revealing exchanges in the Clinton-Sanders tilt involved the question of Wall Street corruption. Sanders has always been a passionate crusader against Wall Street perfidy, but Hillary's take on the subject was fascinating. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/hillary-clintons-take-on-banks-wont-hold-up-20151014 |
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Wait a minute here . . .
"you won't be able to tell who won the election." But wasn't your original premise that if Trump was elected he'd bring the country down so quickly the revolution would happen in your lifetime? I should think a Communist revolution would be noticeable, as would its absence. Or have you given up on Trump now? Then you might as well vote for Hillary. |
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At first I thought he would bring a revolution.
Now, not so much. He'll be a disaster but perhaps not as large a disaster as Hillary. |