Not to confound your expectations, but

Post #408,827 by hnick 3/16/16 6:44:09 PM 3/16/16 6:44:09 PM Reply	Not to confound your expectations, but It is now impossible for Obama to disappoint me. I fully expected him to propose a total right wing ideologue and then roll over for one worse to placate the Republicans. If I find his pick mediocre, it just means he's ahead of his usual game. He won't represent me, so I won't support him. Next one will be the same. Good thing you guys enjoy the status quo. "Religion, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable." ~ AMBROSE BIERCE (1842-1914)
Post #408,829 by rcareaga 3/16/16 9:41:09 PM 3/16/16 9:41:09 PM Reply	sorry 'bout the dearth of rainbows & unicorns, keed
Post #408,831 by mmoffitt 3/17/16 10:53:07 AM 3/17/16 10:53:07 AM Reply	We're all fascists here.
Post #408,832 by Another Scott 3/17/16 11:46:51 AM 3/17/16 11:46:51 AM Reply	IIRC, you're the only one talking about voting for Trump... ;-p
Post #408,833 by mmoffitt 3/17/16 12:40:48 PM 3/17/16 12:40:48 PM Reply	And you guys are voting for the other one.
Post #408,836 by a6l6e6x 3/17/16 3:24:02 PM 3/17/16 3:24:02 PM Reply	Yep, it's gaming theory's alpha beta pruning. Vote for the one that will do least damage. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #408,842 by mmoffitt 3/18/16 11:46:40 AM 3/18/16 11:46:40 AM Reply	Which one would that be?
Post #408,844 by a6l6e6x 3/18/16 3:36:02 PM 3/18/16 4:02:03 PM Reply	Trump will do more damage unless you're a Nazi. :) Even Davis Brooks says it: No, Not Trump, Not Ever Donald Trump is epically unprepared to be president. He has no realistic policies, no advisers, no capacity to learn. His vast narcissism makes him a closed fortress. He doesn’t know what he doesn’t know and he’s uninterested in finding out. He insults the office Abraham Lincoln once occupied by running for it with less preparation than most of us would undertake to buy a sofa. Trump is perhaps the most dishonest person to run for high office in our lifetimes. All politicians stretch the truth, but Trump has a steady obliviousness to accuracy. This week, the Politico reporters Daniel Lippman, Darren Samuelsohn and Isaac Arnsdorf fact-checked 4.6 hours of Trump speeches and press conferences. They found more than five dozen untrue statements, or one every five minutes. “His remarks represent an extraordinary mix of inaccurate claims about domestic and foreign policy and personal and professional boasts that rarely measure up when checked against primary sources,” they wrote. He is a childish man running for a job that requires maturity. He is an insecure boasting little boy whose desires were somehow arrested at age 12. He surrounds himself with sycophants. “You can always tell when the king is here,” Trump’s butler told Jason Horowitz in a recent Times profile. He brags incessantly about his alleged prowess, like how far he can hit a golf ball. “Do I hit it long? Is Trump strong?” he asks. Heck, about men like Trump, he even cites the Bible: Psalm 73 describes them: “Therefore pride is their necklace; they clothe themselves with violence. … They scoff, and speak with malice; with arrogance they threaten oppression. Their mouths lay claim to heaven, and their tongues take possession of the earth. Therefore their people turn to them and drink up waters in abundance.” And yet their success is fragile: “Surely you place them on slippery ground; you cast them down to ruin. How suddenly they are destroyed.” Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov Edited by a6l6e6x March 18, 2016, 04:02:03 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #408,848 by boxley 3/18/16 6:37:50 PM 3/18/16 6:37:50 PM Reply	as they pull out musings from their ass He is a childish man running for a job that requires maturity. He is an insecure boasting little boy whose desires were somehow arrested at age 12. He surrounds himself with sycophants. “You can always tell when the king is here, yeah, we heard the same shit about nixon, reagan, clinton bush 2 and obama. bush 1 was just claimed to be evil personified. always look out for number one and don't step in number two
Post #408,852 by mmoffitt 3/19/16 8:15:23 AM 3/19/16 8:15:23 AM Reply	Heh. Trump is perhaps the most dishonest person to run for high office in our lifetimes. I'm glad the "perhaps" qualifier is on there. Reagan lied more, as did Bill Clinton. You seem to suggest that Hillary is more honest because at least she "tries to tell the truth." That reminds me of the old Will Rogers quote, "The worst thing you can say about a man [or woman] is the he [or she] means well."
Post #408,853 by Another Scott 3/19/16 11:00:20 AM 3/19/16 11:00:20 AM Reply	Nope. PolitiFact: PolitiFact has been documenting Trump’s statements on our Truth-O-Meter, where we’ve rated 76 percent of them Mostly False, False or Pants on Fire, out of 77 statements checked. No other politician has as many statements rated so far down on the dial. You wouldn't have to twist yourself in knots like this if you would just be honest with yourself and admit you're now a Republican. These days you can't bear to vote for a Democrat when it matters. It's unfortunate, but it's fine. ;-p Cheers, Scott.
Post #408,854 by hnick 3/19/16 11:22:18 AM 3/19/16 11:22:18 AM Reply	I believe you have identified the problem The democratic party is not running a Democrat. The candidate that was selected before consulting the people is a neo-liberal authoritarian hawk who, being Wall Street's darling, hoovered up over a million bucks without any product except influence peddling. She's a mainstream Republican. She is currently co-opting as much of Bernie's platform as she can without puking on stage, but given her history of triangulation, those points have the lifespan of a mayfly. Of course, you could claim that she really is the voice of the Democratic party now. The conclusion to that is "game over". I am unconvinced at this time that there is really a game on now; just a kabuki to keep the rabble from rioting. When nobody will look up from their cellphones to riot the kabuki will go away. Your mileage obviously differs... "Religion, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable." ~ AMBROSE BIERCE (1842-1914)
Post #408,855 by malraux 3/19/16 12:10:14 PM 3/19/16 12:10:14 PM Reply	The Democrats may not be running what we used to call a Democrat But the Republicans sure as hell aren't running what we used to call a Republican either: either a racist nationalist authoritarian (ie. "fascist") or a sociopathic theocrat. I'll take my chances with Republican Lite, thanks, if it comes to that. So, what will all the anyone-but-Hillary crowd do if it's VP Sanders or Warren? Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #408,859 by boxley 3/20/16 1:12:47 AM 3/20/16 1:12:47 AM Reply	hey, at least she stays bought look at her sec state record for influence peddling always look out for number one and don't step in number two
Post #408,867 by mmoffitt 3/21/16 10:15:23 AM 3/21/16 10:15:23 AM Reply	I'm a Republican? That's rich, coming from you. You're supporting a Republican (self described even!) in the democratic primaries for heaven's sake.
Post #408,868 by malraux 3/21/16 11:20:20 AM 3/21/16 11:20:20 AM Reply	Re: I'm a Republican? http://forum.iwethey.org/forum/post/408855/ Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #408,871 by mmoffitt 3/21/16 12:03:00 PM 3/21/16 12:03:00 PM Reply	Moving to the Right a little is as bad as moving to the Right a lot. Particularly if you continue to call yourself a "moderate" or a "liberal."
Post #408,874 by malraux 3/21/16 12:48:30 PM 3/21/16 12:48:30 PM Reply	Germany 1930s would seem to be a counter example. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #408,882 by mmoffitt 3/21/16 3:38:21 PM 3/21/16 3:38:21 PM Reply	How'd that work out for Germany in the 40's?
Post #408,887 by malraux 3/21/16 5:24:21 PM 3/21/16 5:24:21 PM Reply	Uh, yeah, that's my point... Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #408,906 by mmoffitt 3/22/16 11:38:27 AM 3/22/16 11:38:27 AM Reply	Same road, same destination, different pace.
Post #408,869 by Another Scott 3/21/16 11:40:26 AM 3/21/16 11:40:26 AM Reply	Is Trump running for the Republican nomination? Is Hillary? ;-p I'm not voting for Trump. You've said you might/will/are considering it. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #408,870 by mmoffitt 3/21/16 12:02:02 PM 3/21/16 12:02:02 PM Reply	... And if I do that, do you really think it's because I believe in Republican policies? As I've noted elsewhere, I hold out the possibility that he's the "lesser evil" only because a Republican looks to be the likely Democratic nominee and he may, in fact, not be a pure Republican like the apparent Democratic nominee (should she win and not be indicted) plainly is. If in practice he turns out to be to the Left of Hillary, it would come as no surprise and he will thus be the "lesser evil." But if it turns out that he is to the Right of Hillary, I think there's a good chance the system will collapse. Either way, there exists a strong argument that voting for Trump in the general, should the Real Republican win the Democratic primary, may well be the best path for a Progressive. Still, I'm not sold on the idea yet. But if I do vote for Trump in the general, it will not be on the basis of supporting Republican policies. You and every other Hillary supporter will be voting for her precisely because you support Republican policies. No one, absolutely no one who votes for her can ever argue otherwise.
Post #408,872 by Another Scott 3/21/16 12:43:59 PM 3/21/16 12:43:59 PM Reply	No offense, but your white male privilege is showing. Trump is proudly spouting racist nonsense. He is proudly shouting misogynistic nonsense. He proudly lies about his record, his proposals, and what he has said a few hours earlier. He's like the rest of the GOP in wanting to slash taxes for the wealthy and gut Planned Parenthood and impose more restrictions on abortion: Republican presidential front-runner Donald Trump defended Planned Parenthood during an interview Tuesday night, doubling down on his remarks that part of the group should be funded. “They do good things,” Trump said during an interview with Sean Hannity that aired on Fox News. “There's two Planned Parenthoods, in a way. You have it as an abortion clinic. Now that's actually a fairly small part of what they do, but it’s a brutal part and I'm totally against it,” Trump said. “They also, however, service women,” Trump said, adding later, “We have to help women. A lot of women are helped. So we have to look at the positives for Planned Parenthood.” Later: “Look, Planned Parenthood has done very good work for many, many — for millions of women,” Trump said in a news conference Tuesday night. “And I’ll say it, and I know a lot of the so-called conservatives, they say that’s really … cause I’m a conservative, but I’m a common-sense conservative.” Trump said he would not fund Planned Parenthood “as long as you have the abortion going on,” but noted the “millions of people — and I’ve had thousands of letters from women — that have been helped.” IOW - "PP does great things, but I'm going to cut off all of their funding until they stop providing abortions." Trump is not the "lesser evil". Trump is the "greater evil". Voting for him is a vote for the Republican candidate, and a vote for the reactionary policies they've put in place in DC and across the country. It's fine to dislike Hillary, but don't try to argue that Trump is somehow better in any way. He's not. "The system will collapse" isn't something to be wished for. Afghanistan and South Sudan and Yemen have systems that collapsed - they're not better off as a result. The system can be fixed by keeping the White House, flipping 6-12 seats in the Senate, and flipping a few dozen seats in the House. That's all it takes. Letting Trump and his angry minions burn the place down won't "fix" anything. You might want to bookmark this post, as I'm likely to keep posting pointers to it if you keep up this line of argument. ;-) My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #408,878 by mmoffitt 3/21/16 2:59:12 PM 3/21/16 3:36:31 PM Reply	Re: The system can be fixed by keeping the White House, flipping 6-12 seats ... You cannot be serious. We have actual history that belies that claim. What was the Senate composition in 2009? Remind me, was a "democrat" in the White House then? What was the composition of the Congress then? The system cannot change if we keep putting Republicans (no matter how they brand themselves) in charge. Edited by mmoffitt March 21, 2016, 03:36:31 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #408,883 by Another Scott 3/21/16 4:05:43 PM 3/21/16 4:05:43 PM Reply	Yes, I am deadly serious. Look at what happened when someone last won the Republican nomination and had a Republican Senate. W's administration had a Republican Senate from 2001-2007 (with some brief 50/50 periods in there where Cheney could break ties). It wasn't that long ago. Remember Iraq Body Count? (Hillary, Biden, Kerry and others voting for the AUMF resolution in October 2002 is not the same as W twisting the intelligence to get his desired result. Hillary didn't say "We're taking (Saddam) out!" in March 2002.) You, by your professed intended actions, are willing to vote to install another Republican nominee in the White House (which would also let that party keep the Senate). I wish you'd snap out of your purity mania and look at what is actually happening. Hillary isn't running for the Republican nomination. The GOP isn't advocating a $15 minimum wage. The GOP broke the House and is trying to break the Senate (won't do their jobs) and is trying to break the SCOTUS. Hillary isn't doing that. There's a world of difference between the parties now. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #408,873 by rcareaga 3/21/16 12:46:05 PM 3/21/16 12:46:05 PM Reply	Yours is an unanswerable argument You and every other Hillary supporter will be voting for her precisely because you support Republican policies. No one, absolutely no one who votes for her can ever argue otherwise. It is unanswerable in the same sense that "Spanish is the native language of most of the people born in Vientiane, Laos since 1978 because salamanders" is unanswerable. Your assertions are not merely untrue, but have veered into nonsensical. And if people gradually cease engaging you, you will feel reinforced in the belief that your glossolalia has swept all before it, and that the Laotians sing "Besame Mucho" each morning as they grind maize for their tortillas. I wish you the joy of it. cordially,
Post #408,881 by mmoffitt 3/21/16 3:37:34 PM 3/21/16 3:37:34 PM Reply	Hillary's not a Republican? I thought her husband said so.
Post #408,875 by malraux 3/21/16 12:50:55 PM 3/21/16 12:50:55 PM Reply	BS You and every other Hillary supporter will be voting for her precisely because you support Republican policies. You seriously think Clinton would be working with a Republican Congress to implement everything they want to do? Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #408,876 by boxley 3/21/16 1:26:03 PM 3/21/16 1:26:03 PM Reply	why not? Her husband certainly did. He ran and won on the "contract for america" always look out for number one and don't step in number two
Post #408,877 by Another Scott 3/21/16 2:33:08 PM 3/21/16 2:33:08 PM Reply	Eh? CfA was 1994. You know, the election where the House flipped to punish Bill?
Post #408,879 by rcareaga 3/21/16 3:27:57 PM 3/21/16 3:27:57 PM Reply	Re: Eh? CfA was 1994. Forget it. He's rolling.
Post #408,884 by boxley 3/21/16 4:13:06 PM 3/21/16 4:18:57 PM Reply	he ended welfare as we know it passed harsh sentences on criminals took credit for it plus others http://www.perkel.com/politics/clinton/repub.htm It's not just about talking the talk, but you have to walk the walk. And when you look at President Clinton's Record, you'll see a record that would make any Republican proud. If President Clinton is doing a good job and passing bills that Republicans support, then why shouldn't Republicans vote for him? What's wrong with voting for someone who's doing a good job? always look out for number one and don't step in number two Edited by boxley March 21, 2016, 04:18:57 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #408,880 by mmoffitt 3/21/16 3:35:51 PM 3/21/16 3:35:51 PM Reply	Not all, but many. Wars? Check. Continuance of the surveillance state? Yes. Continuing to enrich the MIC? Absolutely. No reversal of Wall Street power? Do I even have to answer? Continuing the polarization of wealth? You bet. Continued support for middle class slaughtering via trade deals? Absolutely. Continuance of tax breaks for billionaires? No question. Single Payer stays off the table? Obviously. Banksters continue to impoverish those seeking an education? Check. etc. sic nauseum.
Post #408,885 by Another Scott 3/21/16 4:16:26 PM 3/21/16 4:16:26 PM Reply	Let's play counter-factuals. Do you think Gore would have invaded Iraq? Do you think Gore would have squandered the surplus on tax cuts for the 1%? Do you think Gore would have allowed the huge housing bubble to develop? Do you think 9/11 and Katrina would have happened the way they did under Gore? There Is A Difference Between The Parties. Stop pretending there isn't. Even worse than that, stop pretending that Hillary is worse than Trump. We saw what happened when too many people in critical states bought into Nader's rants in 2000. He's cranking them up again, with an extra helping of sexism. Nader's an old crank now. We saw what happens when people listen to him. Don't be that guy. Cheers, Scott.
Post #408,886 by mmoffitt 3/21/16 5:08:56 PM 3/21/16 5:08:56 PM Reply	The Dumacratic Party, you mean. Sure Gore was to the right of a standard Democrat, but still Left of Hillary. There's no question we'd have been a lot better off with Gore than W. Just as there is no question we'd have been a lot better off with Brown than Clinton in 1992. The Democratic Party no longer represents Democratic policies. Hence, I don't feel I owe them anything.
Post #408,893 by Another Scott 3/21/16 6:32:43 PM 3/21/16 6:32:43 PM Reply	If they can't win the nomination, they can't be elected. That's the way it's always been. Yeah, Bobbie probably would have been a better president than Dick, also too. But that wasn't the choice. You get to choose between 2 people who have the only chances to sit in the White House. Wishing otherwise is fine and good, but you still only have 2 choices. Choosing against your (and your daughter's and the country's) best interests is not the way to change the system. The Democratic Party decides what Democratic Party policies are. If you don't like their policy position on X, Y, Z, then get involved in the party and try to change them. Only people who get involved get a say. Purity ponies who throw their vote away or sit the election out don't change party policies. Cheers, Scott.
Post #408,905 by mmoffitt 3/22/16 11:34:47 AM 3/22/16 11:34:47 AM Reply	FiFY. ~~The Democratic Party~~ Wall Street, Big Pharma and Big Insurance decides what Democratic Party policies are. If you don't like their policy position on X, Y, Z, then ~~get involved in the party~~ befriend a billionaire or become one yourself and ~~try to~~ dictate the changes to them. Only people who ~~get involved~~ make gigantic campaign donations get a say. ~~Purity ponies who throw their vote away or sit the election out don't change party policies.~~ Pragmatists who continue to vote for these clowns will never change party policies, let alone government policies.
Post #408,888 by boxley 3/21/16 6:21:11 PM 3/21/16 6:21:11 PM Reply	katrina would have hit mexico instead and the arabs would have missed the towers cause gore? hardly always look out for number one and don't step in number two
Post #408,890 by Another Scott 3/21/16 6:27:23 PM 3/21/16 6:27:23 PM Reply	Katrina was much, much more than a hurricane. We still don't know how many people died. The choice of President matters. In the fall there will be 2 choices (because only one or the other major party candidates will be elected). I know which one I'll be picking... Cheers, Scott.
Post #408,894 by boxley 3/21/16 6:32:49 PM 3/21/16 6:32:49 PM Reply	bernie I hope always look out for number one and don't step in number two
Post #408,892 by rcareaga 3/21/16 6:32:20 PM 3/21/16 6:32:20 PM Reply	the arabs would have missed the towers cause gore? har Gore might not have blown off the national security briefers the month before with "OK, you've covered your asses." It isn't necessary to be a 9/11 Truther to recognize "Bush kept us safe" as a particularly twisted—variously clinically delusional or sociopathically cynical—meme.
Post #408,856 by a6l6e6x 3/19/16 12:21:43 PM 3/19/16 12:21:43 PM Reply	All politicians are liars. It comes with the territory. Salesmen are professional liars and politicians are at least selling an idea. Stretching the truth is part of that. Here's Bernie: Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) accused Joe Arpaio, the controversial sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona, who has been viciously tough on undocumented immigrants, of ambushing his wife earlier this week. The Democratic presidential candidate’s wife, Jane, visited Arpaio’s “Tent City” jail on Monday to highlight the inhumane conditions of the facility and to meet with undocumented families there. While she was there, a reporter told her Arpaio was at the facility and wanted to meet with her. Arpaio soon appeared while she was speaking with reporters. Sanders pressed Arpaio, who has endorsed Republican Donald Trump, on the brutal conditions of Tent City, where temperatures can reach 130 degrees Fahrenheit. She also asked about racial profiling in Arizona. Sanders said Arpaio had no answers to her questions. Despite their disagreement, the interaction between the two sounded remarkably civil. But during a rally on Thursday, the Democratic presidential candidate said his wife had been “ambushed,” according to The New York Times. Hey, it's "truthiness". Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov

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