IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 0 active users | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New 5 myths about the South's secession
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New rofl Emeritus Professor of Sociology yankeesplainin
"the terrible years after 1890 when town after town across the North became all-white “sundown towns”"
yup yankees loved their black brethren and still do

"Indeed, most white Southern families had no slaves"
followed by sheer whatabouterees

"Given this belief, most white Southerners — and many Northerners, too"
yup yankees held the same beliefs and still do

" “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that"
point made, the war was not over slavery
always look out for number one and don't step in number two
New Not sure your rebuttal is anything of the sort.
New it was in his own words
always look out for number one and don't step in number two
New Oh, look! The real reason for War is buried in Number 5.
"... in 1860. That year, the South produced almost 75 percent of all U.S. exports."

Heh.
New Re: Oh, look! The real reason for War is buried in Number 5.
[...]

A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.

The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.

Sectional interest and animosity will deepen the irritation, and all hope of remedy is rendered vain, by the fact that public opinion at the North has invested a great political error with the sanction of more erroneous religious belief.

We, therefore, the People of South Carolina, by our delegates in Convention assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, have solemnly declared that the Union heretofore existing between this State and the other States of North America, is dissolved, and that the State of South Carolina has resumed her position among the nations of the world, as a separate and independent State; with full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do.

Adopted December 24, 1860


HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New so undocumented aliens should have full voting rights? good to know
always look out for number one and don't step in number two
New The Civil War: largest amnesty program evah!
;-)
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New All wars are about money. You know this.
New It's pretty reasonable to think that the SC secession was about what they said it was about.
New And owning slaves was how wealth was generated.
Slavery was key to the generation of wealth in the South. A threat to it was a threat to the means of production in the South. If owning slaves did not generate wealth, there'd never have been any interest in the North.
New Yeahbut, their own words say it was about slavery.
I don't agree that your last clause follows, btw.

You noticed the comments about slavery being blessed by their religion, and how their "beliefs and safety" were being threatened, were buried in there, too, I trust.

If secession were to be justified on economic grounds, they could have said so.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Religion is *always* used to justify oppression and "true believers deserving wealth."
New Of course they did.
The North was still building infrastructure so they didn't have to depend on expensive imports, mainly from England and Germany. It wasn't easy for them to export such things to countries that were better at making them.

The South was a huge producer of agrarian products, cotton and rice in particular, which were in great demand in Europe. They could be sold at a very high profit, because they were all produced entirely by the labor of slaves.

The money this brought in was in turn spent on luxury goods from Europe. Even during the war, the demand for luxury goods in the South was so great Lee couldn't get war materials through the blockades. The blockade runners were all carrying highly profitable luxury goods. That changed when Lee outlawed importing luxury goods entirely under threat of severe punishment.

England was the manufacturing arm and supplier of arms and ships to Confederacy. England, while closely allied to the South, did not actually enter the war, because, as fate would have it, they had a surplus of cotton in their warehouses at the time. They figured they could wait it out.

Of course, it wasn't all good. The Union captured a ship load of heavy cannons addressed to the Confederacy. They immediately moved to place them in action, but instead sent them to the scrap yard - the quality was so poor they were afraid they'd explode and kill more Union soldiers than Confederates.

Everything changed in Europe when the Union Navy took New Orleans from the south, while the Confederacy was preparing their defenses to the north.

The Europeans suddenly realized they were betting on the wrong horse, and cut off the lines of credit. Then they started looking for other sources of cotton and rice.

After the war, cotton continued to be produced, but could no longer be sold at such high profit - laborers had to be paid. Production of the famous Carolina rice was so dependent on slave labor it ceased to be grown entirely. It was an Indian Patna type, which is now grown as plain "Long Grain Rice" in Louisiana and Texas.

So yes, it was all about the money. The Southern elite knew that without slaves their days of leisure, luxury and pink teas would be over - because their products would no longer be so profitable in Europe.

Of course, they knew they would win. They had nearly all the elite officers, a lot of fortresses and equipment and a willing army. They also knew, from their newspapers and magazines that they were the "Master Race" and the people in the North were a "Servant Race".

Unfortunately for them, the Union also knew the South was going to win, and changed the rules. Now it was "Total War", where every man woman and child was part of the war effort, with production and logistics trumping bravery on the battlefield.

So much for the Master Race.
New nit Your econ is off
They could be sold at a very high profit, because they were all produced entirely by the labor of slaves.
slaves were by no means free. I looked at the books kept by president Andrew Jackson. His hermitage was slave poor. Taxes on personal property (slaves were taxed), cost of buying a slave would hire 20 whites for a year. It was a sunk cost that they could find no way of economic recovery from the system. Thats why it would have been better to purchase the freedom and avoid a war.
always look out for number one and don't step in number two
New If it was so cheap to hire workers . . .
. . then why did production of Carolina Rice end with the end of slavery?

Besides, once you got a few slaves they were self replicating, and the surplus could be sold off (you say for the amount of 20 white men's labor for a year for each one).

And, of course, there was the "Fancy Trade", selling young black women as sex slaves, at a nice price. Hard to give that up, no?

And, if slaves were so expensive, exactly how could they all be bought and released? Maybe Salvation Army bell ringers could raise the money?

In any case, the southern slave owners would see that was a very short term pay off, that would be as severe a long term destruction of their economy as emancipation was.

And besides, the South was raring for a fight. They expected the war to be very short, and to be victorious over the "Servent Race".

I question your economics.
New Re: once you got a few slaves they were self replicating
The slave owners were more than helpful with the replicating!
Alex

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

-- Isaac Asimov
New And that made the US VERY different from Brazil.
New Yes, in Bahia they have African Culture.
In the United States we have "Black Culture". There's pretty much no resemblance between the two.
     5 myths about the South's secession - (malraux) - (18)
         rofl Emeritus Professor of Sociology yankeesplainin - (boxley) - (17)
             Not sure your rebuttal is anything of the sort. -NT - (pwhysall) - (1)
                 it was in his own words -NT - (boxley)
             Oh, look! The real reason for War is buried in Number 5. - (mmoffitt) - (14)
                 Re: Oh, look! The real reason for War is buried in Number 5. - (Another Scott) - (7)
                     so undocumented aliens should have full voting rights? good to know -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                         The Civil War: largest amnesty program evah! - (malraux)
                     All wars are about money. You know this. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                         It's pretty reasonable to think that the SC secession was about what they said it was about. -NT - (Another Scott) - (3)
                             And owning slaves was how wealth was generated. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                 Yeahbut, their own words say it was about slavery. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                     Religion is *always* used to justify oppression and "true believers deserving wealth." -NT - (mmoffitt)
                 Of course they did. - (Andrew Grygus) - (5)
                     nit Your econ is off - (boxley) - (4)
                         If it was so cheap to hire workers . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                             Re: once you got a few slaves they were self replicating - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                 And that made the US VERY different from Brazil. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                     Yes, in Bahia they have African Culture. - (Andrew Grygus)

What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
67 ms