Post #405,873
11/3/15 8:35:12 AM
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As does this.
(CNN)The U.S. Department of Education found a Chicago-area school district discriminated against a transgender student by failing to provide her full access to girls' locker rooms.
"All students deserve the opportunity to participate equally in school programs and activities -- this is a basic civil right," Assistant U.S. Secretary for Civil Rights Catherine Lhamon said in a statement Monday.
The student who hasn't been publicly identified participates on a girls' sports team, but has been required to change and shower separately from her teammates and classmates.
The DOE launched the investigation following a 2013 complaint by the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois, which is representing her. http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/03/us/illinois-school-district-transgender-ruling/index.htmlOkay, so, you have an X chromosome and Y chromosome but because "gender is a continuum" and you "self identify as female" you should be able to go into the girls locker room and look at naked girls. Why didn't I think of this when I was in high school?
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Post #405,875
11/3/15 9:28:50 AM
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"Why didn't I think of this when I was in high school?"
You didn't think of this in high school because the authorities of the time would not have cooperated, the courts would not have heard the case, and various interested parties would have rained cuffs and blows upon you for your effrontery. It was a different time. Also, this, which is timeless: (I have a relative who, at ten, has "switched gender identification" with the moral support of the parents, who've apparently seen this coming for some years. I am myself somewhat nonplussed at this development, but after expressing a cautious reservation to the effect that this might be a little early to be making such a decision I was persuaded that I had nothing to add to the discussion and less than no standing to join it, and so sensibly shut up. All parties have my silent best wishes going forward.) cordially,
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Post #405,883
11/3/15 10:32:56 AM
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Serious question.
Do you think the XX teenage girls at this lad/lassie's high school are entitled to any input in his/her entering the showers with them? Or have we entered an age where it is improper to consider the impact to others of one's desires?
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Post #405,886
11/3/15 11:40:49 AM
11/3/15 2:32:49 PM
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Re: Serious question.
(Also: take into account the "edit" notation below.) "This decision makes me extremely happy -- because of what it means for me, personally, and for countless others," the student said. "The district's policy stigmatized me, often making me feel like I was not a 'normal person.'" While I'm inclined to think that normality is overrated (as mmoffitt is fond of reminding us, people who prefer same-gender sexual partners probably represent well under ten percent of the population and are accordingly not "normal," but so what?), it seems to me incontestably true that an XY teenager self-identifying as female is an exceptional case and accordingly also not normal. Of course, Stephen Hawking as a particularly brilliant physicist who has survived with ALS for several decades longer than most sufferers also fails to meet the normality standard—but I digress. To address the question, the teenage girls are certainly entitled to input on the issue of shower entry, and I presume that this was provided on their behalf in the course of the court proceedings, to which I was not privy. This is not an easy or simple issue, or we would not be reading about it. I presume—and bear with me here, because I wish only minimally to conflate the issues—that there were students in formerly all-white schools during the early years of government-mandated desegregation who were made extremely uncomfortable by the presence of swarthy schoolmates in their locker rooms. You will correctly observe, whether or not you personally think that desegregation by fiat was a good idea, that these policies were promulgated in response to a complex of social, political and economic issues that loomed very large in American public life, whereas the subset of oppressed transgender teens represents by comparison an infinitesimally minor segment of the population. I am assuming here, as it may be you do not, that the individual on behalf of whom the suit was brought is sincere in the asserted female identification, and not an opportunistic young lecher looking to ogle the coeds. The hard questions go to the courts. I think that people of good will would have recognized the ambiguities inherent in either outcome to this particular case. Certainly I don't have the answer. cordially, EDIT: After a less cursory reading of the source, I now realize that the determination that the transgender student was denied, et cetera, was made at the administrative/bureaucratic level, and does not proceed from a court decision. I daresay, accordingly, that the affronted modesties will go on to seek judicial relief. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Edited by rcareaga
Nov. 3, 2015, 02:32:49 PM EST
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Post #405,888
11/3/15 11:58:12 AM
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Things have change in the years since we attended highschool
According to late practice, it is extremely rare for any young ladies to show communally. Usually they just wipe their pits, put on deodorant and wait to shower at home. Having ridden a bus filled with highschoolers it appears that many forego the facilities at home as well.
I suspect that a transperson would have some allies at a school that would be inclusive in their group. Any letch trying to scam would get a physical beating by the girls.
The only time I ever went into the girls bathroom in highschool was after being invited to do so.
you can kill people for America at age 18 but need to be 21 to buy a beer
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Post #405,892
11/3/15 1:16:58 PM
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and therein hangs a tale, or a tail, no doubt
The only time I ever went into the girls bathroom in highschool was after being invited to do so.
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Post #405,900
11/3/15 2:55:51 PM
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only place to get some privacy
you can kill people for America at age 18 but need to be 21 to buy a beer
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Post #405,898
11/3/15 2:35:51 PM
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The converse case
I am not too worried about one XY girl in a locker room full of XX girls. As great-uncle to a transgender boy, I am more worried about the behavior of a locker room full of XY boys with one XX boy in their midst.
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Post #405,899
11/3/15 2:39:05 PM
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Or a locker room full of XY boys and an XY girl
Because that's what you'd get if this decision when the other way.
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Post #405,903
11/3/15 3:13:19 PM
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"an XY girl" *BOGGLE*
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Post #405,902
11/3/15 3:12:43 PM
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I agree it's not an easy issue.
But, this sounds idiotic to me. ACLU lawyer John Knight said the complaint against the school district was filed two years ago, noting the student then had to dress for gym in a restroom. Knight said that when in the girl's locker room, his client is required to use a privacy curtain, which is not required for other girls and shames her.
Knight contends the district's position stems not from any issues raised by other students, but from "speculation" by the district's administration. He added that District 211's insistence on separating the student from other girls "is blatant discrimination."
"Rather than approaching this issue with sensitivity and dignity, the district has attempted to justify its conduct by challenging my client's identity as a girl," he said.
Cates contended that the "students in our schools are teenagers, not adults, and one's gender is not the same as one's anatomy." http://abc13.com/education/school-given-30-days-to-allow-transgender-student-locker-room-use/1066056/So, the school district allowed the student to use the girl's locker room, but installed privacy curtains for him-her to use when disrobing and any other girl to use if they so chose. But, this was a violation of civil rights? It "shamed" the student because the one student with a penis had to disrobe behind a curtain, notwithstanding the fact that at least some of the rest of the girls (sans penis, naturally) used those privacy curtains as well? Aside: I'm kind of surprised the girl's locker room didn't already have privacy curtains - my high school did some 40 years ago. Finally, just so I'm clear, the sex of an individual cannot be determined by observing the sex organs of the individual nor their chromosomal pairing? If that's where we are, I need to stop by the store on the way home and pick up a case of Brawndo.
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Post #405,908
11/3/15 5:07:08 PM
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stop by the store, sex is brain not body parts
you can kill people for America at age 18 but need to be 21 to buy a beer
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Post #405,926
11/4/15 8:32:55 AM
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Bzzzt. It's chromosomal.
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Post #418,523
6/13/17 4:58:27 AM
6/13/17 4:58:27 AM
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Bzzzt yourself: "Sex" may be chromosomal, but "gender" is in the brain.
If I've understood reccurrent usage correctly.
Come the fuck on, get with the times: This stuff originates from the USA, so how come you're so much less up-to-date than a furriner like me?
Try not to be so much of a caricature of a Bible-thumping fundamentalist (AKA Taliban of the Western World).
-- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
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Post #418,527
6/13/17 8:47:37 AM
6/13/17 8:47:37 AM
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Bible thumping?
Now that Chris Hitchens is dead, you'd be hard pressed to find a more anti-religionist than moi. I seriously do not know what you're arguing about with me. Bill writes, "sex is brain not body parts" and I respond "sex is chromosomal" to which you respond with "stop being a bible thumper, sex may be chromosomal." Whatsamatta, ferriners have trouble holding a thought?
bcnu, Mikem
It's mourning in America again.
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Post #405,913
11/3/15 9:27:18 PM
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Really?
ACLU: Today’s decision is the result of a complaint to the Department of Education in December 2013 on behalf of the young woman. She has identified as a female since a very early age and shared this information with her family several years ago. She transitioned to living full-time as a female and has been doing so ever since. She and her parents have legally changed her name and obtained a passport listing her gender as female.
When the young woman entered high school, she and her parents met with school officials to request that she be treated as a female in all ways, including sports, and bathroom and locker room access. She was allowed to use the restroom designated for females, wear the female uniform during physical education class and sports, but was denied use the female locker room when changing. Instead, she was directed to a separate bathroom for changing, a bathroom located down a long hallway from the gym.
Being separated from her classmates and teammates in this way has made her feel stigmatized and different. More than two years ago, her parents began to advocate, urging school officials to reverse this decision. After those efforts were unsuccessful, the parents reached out to the ACLU of Illinois, who wrote to the school explaining why the District was violating Title IX and the Illinois Human Rights Act. Because the District refused to budge, lawyers for the ACLU filed a complaint for the parents with the Department of Education in December of that same year. Yeah, it's all about ogling the naked girls. :-( Cheers, Scott.
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Post #405,927
11/4/15 8:34:28 AM
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Where do you buy your Brawndo?
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Post #405,928
11/4/15 9:57:29 AM
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Same place I get my burrito coverings.
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