Errg.

Post #400,424 by Another Scott 3/26/15 10:33:43 AM Reply	Errg. The BBC reporting on it this morning makes it seem like he was a fairly normal guy who loved flying (glider pilot (like Scully), etc.). I wonder if there is a broken heart/scorned love aspect to this tragedy. :-( Cheers, Scott.
Post #400,458 by boxley 3/26/15 7:26:59 PM Reply	an assumption is being made that he was unwilling to open he door, he may have been incapacitated Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
Post #400,460 by malraux 3/26/15 7:30:37 PM Reply	The autopilot was set to an altitude of 100ft while the pilot was out. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #400,461 by Nightowl 3/26/15 7:37:25 PM Reply	Re: The autopilot was set to an altitude of 100ft while the pilot was out. Yeah, the news just indicated that doing that was a deliberate act, so the pilot had to be conscious and able to do that. Also setting the door control to locked was another deliberate act that prevented the pilot from using the key pad. From all accounts at this time it appears that he deliberately crashed the plane. Brenda ___________________________________________________________________ I feel like a melted-down owl between two slices of parent!
Post #400,472 by mmoffitt 3/27/15 8:46:47 AM Reply	That's possible, but unlikely here imo. The remaining pilot did apparently disable the keypad entry of the cockpit door. When that happens, the keypad can't be used for a set interval of time (between 5 and 20 minutes IIRC). It's possible that he got violently ill and started a descent and was planning an emergency landing, but became completely incapacitated before he could manage to pull it off. But then, why would he have intentionally disabled the keypad door mechanism? They also said that the co-pilot was "breathing normally" until impact. AFAIK, they haven't found the other black box yet, but it should be able to indicate for certain that the door disable switch was tripped. In that case, pilot incapacitation seems unlikely in the extreme.
Post #400,477 by boxley 3/27/15 10:15:01 AM Reply	from the latest news it appears that it was deliberate Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
Post #400,483 by Nightowl 3/27/15 1:39:32 PM Reply	Re: from the latest news it appears that it was deliberate It seems that way. They found that he had a note from a doctor excusing him from work that day, and yet he went to work. Sad that he couldn't admit the problem existed and not fly that day. Brenda ___________________________________________________________________ I feel like a melted-down owl between two slices of parent!
Post #400,484 by mmoffitt 3/27/15 1:55:51 PM Reply	I don't know how Europe does it. But what I've read indicates to me that he was looking at the equivalent of losing his medical here. That would be career ending.
Post #400,485 by malraux 3/27/15 2:10:32 PM Reply	His response was definitely career ending. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #400,486 by mmoffitt 3/27/15 2:11:49 PM Reply	And an affirmation of the physician's finding.
Post #400,497 by Nightowl 3/28/15 12:23:46 AM Reply	He wanted to go down in spectacular fashion and be remembered Airbus crash pilot Andreas Lubitz had been planning a spectacular gesture to make everyone "remember" who he was, it was claimed on Friday night. An ex-girlfriend of the Germanwings pilot who crashed his plane in the French Alps, killing all 149 others on board, described him as "tormented" and able to hide secrets. Maria, 26 (not her real name), told Bild newspaper that when she heard about the crash she remembered that he had said he was going do something "that would change the system" and "make everyone remember" him. She added: "It didn't make sense at the time but now it all does." Maria, who is thought to have met Lubitz at work, said he would wake up at night screaming in terror: "We're going down." Full article here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11501075/Andreas-Lubitz-planned-spectacular-gesture-that-would-go-down-in-history-claims-ex-girlfriend.html Well...he'll certainly be remembered... Brenda ___________________________________________________________________ I feel like a melted-down owl between two slices of parent!
Post #400,498 by Nightowl 3/28/15 12:23:54 AM 3/28/15 12:25:31 AM Reply	Ignore...dupe post. Sorry. ___________________________________________________________________ I feel like a melted-down owl between two slices of parent! Edited by Nightowl March 28, 2015, 12:25:31 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #400,507 by scoenye 3/28/15 11:03:38 AM Reply	Doesn't matter much Having come out at a low-cost operator would have been a career ender, official loss of license or not. Calling in sick is not good for the profit margins and they do not have the protections that staff at the old state airlines still have to some extent. The undercurrent that things are amiss has always been there, but it usually gets drowned out by other, more important news. In the wake of this disaster, though, the situation has been getting at least a bit more exposure. Some of the things that have come out are that a good number of young pilots, like Lubtiz, are paying the opertors to fly. It is their only hope of recuperating the money spent getting their license. And 20% of all the pilots are "contractors". I.e. they fly at the beck and call of the operator for next to nothing, but are expected to keep up with training and regulations on their own dime. Add all that to the stress inherent to the job, and it is a wonder that depression has not reached epidemic proportions yet. Than again, maybe it has as no one dares to talk about it.
Post #400,508 by Another Scott 3/28/15 11:20:30 AM Reply	Excellent points. I would expect worker protections are stronger in Germany than in the US, but medical fitness is a huge deal for pilots. For obvious reasons. Here's hoping companies everywhere, and not just in aviation, carefully look at the report when it comes out. When companies promote their exclusivity, status, etc., and work to get people who are willing to devote their lives to working there, those companies have responsibilities to the people to keep them safe, treat them respectfully, and understand that that the workers' economic and emotional investment is huge. Crushing peoples' psyche, even if objectively required for safety, shouldn't be done in a vacuum. People aren't disposable, and people who are responsible for hundreds of lives and millions of dollars worth of equipment and potentially billions of dollars in liability judgments, doubly so. Tragic all around. I hope the correct lessons are learned. Cheers, Scott.
Post #400,523 by Ashton 3/28/15 5:19:54 PM Reply	Share your unrealistic hopes.. because one. must. Our kultur long ago decided that it was OK--re every. one's. health, survival--to invoke the famous highwayman koan, Your money/or your life! {mofo.. implicit} Proliferation of tony knock-off clinics, all For-profit, with spoils going to the Eye-of-each-pyramid ..and a big ETC. is what we wrought, via accepting the ethics-free umbrella of the overriding vulture-nature of our capitalist national religion. Statistics ain't got no ethics either: an acceptable #crashes/company/decade [or aircraft-model?] is the 'bar' which apportions the spending; decisions all made in the mentioned, wealthy-already Eye of the Org. As scoenye reminds, the 'amiss' undercurrent has already been there. Nobody has a nice model of a litmus test for those of whom Much is expected, [simply: Perfection] while Pay and equally-important Epaulets are withheld.. (in some cases, even decent food and shelter is not affordable): after you land that multi-$M machine with its multi-$B cargo-of-Liabilities. Many here have seen skits about the double, triple-bunking of crews of less-than-Iconic marques; corollary to each of these skits: how many of these Live sleep-deprived/thus WORK sleep-deprived? ..most working-days of any year. Have a nice/cheap/safe Flight; pick-any-two. (BONUS: If flights cost lots more.. and soon: there will be less lethal pollution/day too.) So.. you know.. (right?) the Real-mofos, those who apportion via an early-inculcated Zero-sum concept of life-itself? will--even now, 3+ days after this kid Lost It!--see any next expenditures in terms reduced to two aspects: 1) We have to spend PR money Now! to sell reassurances/thus appearances that: we will 100%-spot any next clone {yaShure..} 2) Every dollar, Euro, Guilder of that comes directly out of my Second-Veyron piggy-bank, so we will-not overspend on the above. (I labor here to withhold my feelings about the Master-Gamers of All systems; those who, currently control most actions that ever cost over a couple million zlotys, planetwide); all know that such-as-these give nary a Shit about the truthiness in yours, scoenye's remarks. They care-not a Shit even whether the planet can maintain, so long as they die-first with more Stuff than can be inventoried in a fortnight. (What do we always do, once a pestilence has been positively I.D.'d and the news finally penetrates avge-grade jelloware? Fingers crossed.) Could our species possibly garner more than a [D-] collectively ... on Deportment? (I award no Points for some rather lovely koans extant, as those were intended for Others to follow.) :-/ We must continue to expect better, especially of the young and not-yet concretized ... ... in perpetual hopes that not-All of us are indeed Bastards. I'm a sucker for that, too. :-)
Post #400,524 by Ashton 3/28/15 5:53:13 PM Reply	Flying amortization -vs- Student Loans SImilar scams? both avenues encounter the Crass, foremost--it seems. Many have struggled along, making whatever min-payment-Forever... keeps then off the FAIL-so-Prosecute roster. Their "degrees", worthless to any Std. crass-CIEIO who sees only a commodity. (When you need an MBA, merely to survive--do you really want to live in a spot where bizness ethics governs all neighbors, too?) (I guess that anyone who flies an Embraer and such--for more than a summer's duration say?--already has the UV-revealable Scarlet-letter on forehead): A (Ain't Got our kind of Cuth.) Wonder how long it takes the more alert wannabes to discover ... Gehabt, KIndern! and %what? shall eventually seek ..revenge on some scale. I admit my ignorance of what %meritocracy "a Captain makes", but Air France 447 and its Bonin clearly indicated a kid in that seat via aristocracy underpinnings (and in another crash, a pilot had let his kids PLAY with teh pretty Glass-wall and buttons.) I no verbs. Who really did say (first?) ..the more you find out, the darker it gets.
Post #400,565 by rcareaga 3/30/15 12:47:28 PM Reply	Could be you win the thread I wonder if there is a broken heart/scorned love aspect to this tragedy. There are conflicting accounts, but I've read a couple of reports to the effect that Lubitz' girlfriend had announced a couple of days earlier that she planned to move out of the apartment they shared. Add to the existing account of a "control freak" and I come up with the following mental (I do not say rational) process: "She's leaving me? She's leaving me? No fucking way! I'll make her see reason...She's still leaving? I'll show her. I'll kill myself, and then she'll feel bad. Fuck, I'll kill myself and an entire planeload of holiday-goers, and then she'll feel really bad." Few of us enjoy rejection, but certain personality types take it very badly (I remained in a stunned funk for years following the disintegration of my own domestic arrangements, although it wouldn't have occurred to me to take it out on the occasional passengers in my car), the bulk of the extreme responses taking the form of murder of the estranged other, or murder/suicide, Lubitz apparently taking it to the next level and then some. Absent a written statement of intent we can probably never know, but I suspect that the "scorned love" element you have suggested is the likeliest motive. cordially,
Post #400,575 by Nightowl 3/30/15 7:57:01 PM Reply	That and being deemed unfit to fly. Great post! Nice to see you Rcareaga! Brenda ___________________________________________________________________ I feel like a melted-down owl between two slices of parent!
Post #400,587 by mmoffitt 3/31/15 10:15:35 AM Reply	There are more differences between how the Europeans do it and we than I realized. I've heard it reported that the co-pilot was "treated for depression and suicidal tendencies" before receiving his pilot's license. That absolutely would not happen here. Any history of any mental issues are lifetime disqualifiers for receiving even a Private Pilot license, let alone Commercial and ATP beyond that. If you so much as use a mild anti-depressant (even for off-label use) you lose your ticket permanently. No way anyone starts or finishes flight training (at any level) if they were being treated for a mental illness of any sort.
Post #400,608 by crazy 3/31/15 3:37:12 PM Reply	blame it on the nazis http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3019193/How-Nazis-blame-Germanwings-pilot-Andreas-Lubitz-allowed-fly.html
Post #400,612 by drook 3/31/15 5:11:25 PM Reply	That's a tough one -- Drew
Post #400,615 by Ashton 3/31/15 6:30:17 PM Reply	NYT sez that.. some slack is cut though, even here. NYT. Pilots’ fears about the consequences of being honest about their mental health was one reason the Federal Aviation Administration in 2010 loosened its policy, allowing them to take certain antidepressants and still fly if the illness was mild. Before the policy changed, some pilots received mental health treatment and antidepressants from private doctors but concealed that information from airlines and regulators, said doctors familiar with the agency’s practices. But all can see (except those who always cry [Certain!] about any opinion) ... We haven't the foggiest idea how--via any cockamamie law or other pressure--to prevent Anyone from committing an unprecedented action. Maybe someday, wnen the Securitat-chip is implanted at birth.. say 2025?
Post #400,619 by pwhysall 4/1/15 8:17:59 AM Reply	Zero tolerance is superficially appealing... ...but simply means that people will actively avoid reporting whatever is being zero toleranced.
Post #400,620 by Another Scott 4/1/15 8:27:40 AM Reply	This. We can't use science to treat disease and conditions and at the same time think that huge consequences of accepting such treatment are not important. If people have mental issues, the solution isn't to punish them for seeking treatment. How? Dunno, exactly. But letting them fly alone on a day that a doc says they shouldn't probably isn't a good idea. :-( Having 2 people in the cockpit at all times should help in most cases. Assuming the pilots don't have guns, of course... :-( There's been an epidemic of zero-tolerance in the US. It needs to stop. Cheers, Scott.
Post #400,627 by Ashton 4/1/15 3:23:19 PM Reply	Alternates for pilots? (Muricans love black/white Draconian answers to serious, complex questions.) Given the cut-throat competition for one of the Well-paid slots (whatever the ratio to the often insulting pay for those who shepherd only a few dozen lives at a time) there could be some (formal) acknowledgment of your well-stated opening: If a mental quirk arises, person could be temporarily be tasked with training others or similar tasks requiring experience of flying the actual hardware in use. Presuming that, in many cases an episode does not portend a declining spiral, is somewhat treatable--even within our current tenuous grasp of all such matters--formal recognition of this alternative could help lots. Still, even were this method applied in good faith, there remains the prospect of no successful treatment, the only-delayed instant loss of all chops and income. More incentives? guaranteed pensioning off, with qualifications to address scamming. Consider thus: the Corporate expense of such a pension is trivial compared with [One mangled planeload.] Corporate must have this explained in language an MBA could comprehend, or any bright 12 yo. And that is not even snark/some are sociopaths themselves. The obvious determinant of any solution to [perpetual] biped unpredictability is to use the fucking-money to ameliorate the pilot's sudden-death fiscally, encouraging self-reporting sans stigma ... and for Corporate to realize it's not only the humane solution, it's also the approach that places passengers in least jeopardy. Translate the costs into the Liabilities of every (what's the TLA for piloting-direct-into-ground, again?) although there will be those because of weather and other conditions, not mental ones. Airlines Could do this. Will they? ... Can we Make Them? Evading this dilemma with Stats is the natural inclination of every Biz-major, ever with eyes on the biggest prize: more-for-Me. aka What, me worry over an event every 5 years? 10 years? (Same argument re cat rescue: why bother? when your piddling efforts can't alter millions of routinized executions, via percentages to 10 decimal places.) But there's still the $Ms of hardware Loss and $Bs of Cost/per-dead-body:--THE PR--and the families in ever expanding circles. What is that Worth to a Corporation ..such as those we know? (It's easy re the futility of cat rescue: THAT ONE gets to LIVE. And we humans get endorphins for realizing the fact and acting on it). I'd bet that Corp shareholders/(screw the self-electing BODs) would support, by stock-purchase: this rationale as humane for the afflicted pilot/humane for the saving of even ONE-more mental-caused crash. And for being refreshing amidst the Crass-majority of Corps. Let's test that theory: doing $Well by Doing Good (but not as Tom Lehrer satire.)
Post #400,635 by Another Scott 4/1/15 5:59:57 PM Reply	Well said. People do need alternatives rather than being kicked to the curb...

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